Stansted Departrues
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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Stansted Departrues
As a "round-dial" operator with no FMS data-base, I find it increasingly challenging to adhere to the exact departure track on some of the Stansted SIDs, as compared to our FMS database glass cockpit-equipped airplanes, who seem to have no difficulties with these SIDs. Has Stansted tightened the tolerances on these SIDs as far as track adherence is concerned? What are the most common problems with track violators and can you give us any advice on techniques to better comply with the tracks? Also, when you say "no speed restrictions" immediately after departure, doesn't this imply that a faster airspeed during the departure would automatically lead to overshooting of various turnpoints? Why do you state "no speed restrictions" during a Stansted SID when speed control is critical to making the tight turns necessary to adhere to track?
Thanks very much for any insight you can provide to these questions.
Thanks very much for any insight you can provide to these questions.
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Globally,
Can't comment on the EGSS specific stuff, but the speed restriction is primarily there for ATC separation purposes during the early stages of the flight.
If there are no separation isues from preceeding traffic the speed restriction can be lifted with the phrase "no ATC speed restriction".
This releases you from the 250kts below 10,000ft restriction but it doesn't mean you must then accelerate. Although most do go faster when the speed restriction is lifted it is not a requirement, you can fly at whatever speed you think appropriate until such time as you're happy to go faster.
So if you're released from the speed restriction but think going quicker will make track keeping more difficult, don't accelerate until you're sure you're not going to have any problems.
HTH.
WF.
Can't comment on the EGSS specific stuff, but the speed restriction is primarily there for ATC separation purposes during the early stages of the flight.
If there are no separation isues from preceeding traffic the speed restriction can be lifted with the phrase "no ATC speed restriction".
This releases you from the 250kts below 10,000ft restriction but it doesn't mean you must then accelerate. Although most do go faster when the speed restriction is lifted it is not a requirement, you can fly at whatever speed you think appropriate until such time as you're happy to go faster.
So if you're released from the speed restriction but think going quicker will make track keeping more difficult, don't accelerate until you're sure you're not going to have any problems.
HTH.
WF.
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I cannot answer the FMS question, however, when we say,' No ATC Speed restriction' it means just that ! You do not have to accelerate. If you have an aircraft behind, I may ask you to accelerate. We may say, 'after the turn. no ATC speed restriction.
Its up to you what speed you fly.
Its up to you what speed you fly.
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The tracks of the stansted npr's are a corridor 1.5nm either side of the centreline ( I think). I know some operators have had trouble with track keeping on certain routes and one of our freight customers has reduced max speed to 185kts after departure on the sid to reduce track overshoots. When given No Speed by radar controller it is still your responsibility to adhere to the noise preferential routing until 3000' for CPT,BKY,BUZAD and 4000' LAM,CLN,DVR,LYD departures. If accelerating is likely to compromise this then you can expect to get into trouble for it so don't do it !! The noise monitoring unit have ears everywhere and field quite a few complaints when someone makes a din !!
As you mention, the glass cockpit boys and girls have no trouble. The 737-800 tracks overlay each other exactly, every time smack down the middle. You could always come up and chat about it or arrange a visit to the noise unit (NTK) which is based at enterprise house.
As you mention, the glass cockpit boys and girls have no trouble. The 737-800 tracks overlay each other exactly, every time smack down the middle. You could always come up and chat about it or arrange a visit to the noise unit (NTK) which is based at enterprise house.
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Over and out
Oh no it doesn't
It means exactly as you say and if they chose to go to economic climb the speed may reduce.
9 out of 10 transmissions saying no ATC speed restriction are either meaningless or counter productive.
' No ATC Speed restriction' it means just that ! You do not have to accelerate.
It means exactly as you say and if they chose to go to economic climb the speed may reduce.
9 out of 10 transmissions saying no ATC speed restriction are either meaningless or counter productive.
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I too find Fido's post confusing. I have always understood the term 'No ATC Speed Restriction' to be removing the maximum speed limit. It is often necessary to resrict the speed to well below the maximum, especially in certain wind conditions, so as to maintain the SID track.
Am I correct in thinking that turns on SID tracks are designed with a maximum speed of 210kts? I don't have a copy of PANS-OPS at home so can't check.
Airclues
Am I correct in thinking that turns on SID tracks are designed with a maximum speed of 210kts? I don't have a copy of PANS-OPS at home so can't check.
Airclues
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As a former 'Round Dial' operator I used to hold the speed back around the turns on the departures out of Stn to ensure that I made the turns without overshooting.
Now as a glass operator I still ensure that the departure maintains a max of 220kts until around the corners.
If you speed, up either glass or dials, you will overshoot the turns, 'Yea canna change the laws of physics'. If ATC remove the speed restriction they are not removing the track keeping constraint!
Now as a glass operator I still ensure that the departure maintains a max of 220kts until around the corners.
If you speed, up either glass or dials, you will overshoot the turns, 'Yea canna change the laws of physics'. If ATC remove the speed restriction they are not removing the track keeping constraint!
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The published NPR is 1.5km either sie of the centreline of the NPR. The SID track and the centreline of the NPR are however not identical, as the radials change with magnetic varioation, whilst the centreline of the NPR is a DfT published line on the ground. The Stansted Flight Evaluation Unit (FEU based in Entreprise House is worth a visit to understand what is trying to be achieved on departure. Stansted are currently the only UK airport to fine operators £500 for flagrant off track departures. There are get out clauses, but please ensure you do all you can to remain within the swathes up to 3000/4000ft. Don't forget though at night (2330-0600) ATC have vectroing restrictions that mean they can not take an aircraft off the NPR until 4000ft.
Hope this clears up the track keeping issue.
To add to all that has been written, the removal of the speed restriction just take the max. 250kts below FL100 limitation off, if you want to decelerate, then there is nothing stopping you...
Hope this clears up the track keeping issue.
To add to all that has been written, the removal of the speed restriction just take the max. 250kts below FL100 limitation off, if you want to decelerate, then there is nothing stopping you...
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pheighdough
I would like to visit the FEU so as to pass the information on to our company pilots. Can this be done within the 30 minutes visitor parking restriction at Enterprise House, or do I need to catch the shuttle bus from Stansted House?
Airclues
I would like to visit the FEU so as to pass the information on to our company pilots. Can this be done within the 30 minutes visitor parking restriction at Enterprise House, or do I need to catch the shuttle bus from Stansted House?
Airclues
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Tolerance to NPRs departing Stansted, and I'm sure most other airports, is extremely important. In Stansted's case, because the airport is continually growing and is looking towards handling 35 million pax per annum with a single runway and now the Government want a second runway to be in operation by the year 2012, aircraft noise is very high on the minds of those opposing these growth plans.
Any deviation from NPRs at Stansted is fully investigated to find out the cause so no re-occurrence occurs. Flagrant deviations are subject to financial penalties and if repeated could ultimately result in the operator being refused permission to operate into Stansted.
Any deviation from NPRs at Stansted is fully investigated to find out the cause so no re-occurrence occurs. Flagrant deviations are subject to financial penalties and if repeated could ultimately result in the operator being refused permission to operate into Stansted.
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Firstly, Captain Airclues, you're better off catching the bus, as a visit to teh FEU will take in excess of the ridiculous 30 minute parking restriction.
Secondly., I know I reiterated your post Vlad, but I think it is an important point, particularly when fines are in place, just ask the pilots of an airline who have to pay the £500 from their own pockets...
Secondly., I know I reiterated your post Vlad, but I think it is an important point, particularly when fines are in place, just ask the pilots of an airline who have to pay the £500 from their own pockets...
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Stansted Departures
Pheidough,
Your posts are interesting. I have visited numerous airport FEU's and all are very helpful. What I found suprising is that they are on our side. Anyway, the level of data is extremely useful and I was pleased to see what goes on on the other side of the fence! By the way, they can sort out any car parking issues! Definately worth a visit
Your posts are interesting. I have visited numerous airport FEU's and all are very helpful. What I found suprising is that they are on our side. Anyway, the level of data is extremely useful and I was pleased to see what goes on on the other side of the fence! By the way, they can sort out any car parking issues! Definately worth a visit
