Easyjet ---- RIS/RAS
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You say it was a management decision...still doesn\'t answer the question.....how come you can route BLACA - DCS, but not BEL - DUB under RIS?
Whereas, I expect you want to know why some operators can operate one route outside CAS but not another under the same conditions ??
PS A pilot moved it .... I\'ll plead the 5th on the subject of who has more brains
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Thans to PPRuNE RADAR for clearing that up. I was refering to ATC unit management who dictated the level of service to be provided in Class G airspace in the Scottish AOR.
I can't explain why some Easyjet flights operate DCS - BLACA with a RIS but cannot operate BEL - DUB with the same service.
I can only assume that Easyjet have a different rule for Newcastle operations. To get to Belfast there is no route between NEW and the edge of CAS in the vicinity of Carlisle, then via DCS W911D IOM L10 for Belfast. To fly between Newcastle and Belfast and remain inside Controlled or advisory airspace for the whole route would involve flying via POL and WAL. This routing would obviously eat in to the profitability of the route. L602 via TLA is also a non starter as the base of CAS in the vicinity of NEW is 195(205 fromthe 17th)
TUTH
I can't explain why some Easyjet flights operate DCS - BLACA with a RIS but cannot operate BEL - DUB with the same service.
I can only assume that Easyjet have a different rule for Newcastle operations. To get to Belfast there is no route between NEW and the edge of CAS in the vicinity of Carlisle, then via DCS W911D IOM L10 for Belfast. To fly between Newcastle and Belfast and remain inside Controlled or advisory airspace for the whole route would involve flying via POL and WAL. This routing would obviously eat in to the profitability of the route. L602 via TLA is also a non starter as the base of CAS in the vicinity of NEW is 195(205 fromthe 17th)
TUTH
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I think we should acknowledge the role of SRG in determining the acceptable task for controllers at Scottish.
Also, Radar, given that the regulator and service providers will, of course, argue that they are furnishing operators with 'adequate protection', it is then for the operator (alone) to determine whether the operational framework provides an acceptable risk mix to justify their case for providing CAT. In making that decision, the operator's accountable manager should take advice from appropriate sources. This does not happen in the real world.
On one hand, there are many examples of recent 'close shaves' between aircraft within CAS, on the other, examples of similar events outside. The difference lies in determining the responsibility for assurance of safety (the exercise of duty of care). In this respect, the two environments are entirely distinct.
Also, Radar, given that the regulator and service providers will, of course, argue that they are furnishing operators with 'adequate protection', it is then for the operator (alone) to determine whether the operational framework provides an acceptable risk mix to justify their case for providing CAT. In making that decision, the operator's accountable manager should take advice from appropriate sources. This does not happen in the real world.
On one hand, there are many examples of recent 'close shaves' between aircraft within CAS, on the other, examples of similar events outside. The difference lies in determining the responsibility for assurance of safety (the exercise of duty of care). In this respect, the two environments are entirely distinct.
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This routing would obviously eat in to the profitability of the route.
I was a bit surprised by an earlier post that any ATCO would feel it necessary to reduce service from RIS to FIS due to 'military activity'. How difficult can it be to call in a load of strangers? Shouldn't the service simply be limited due to traffic density? Surely better than a FIS, which, IMHO I would only downgrade to if the ac was operating outside radar cover!
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ILS 119.5 such sweeping statements would reduce loganair to flying Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen & maybe Sumburgh if they fly high enough. Or are you advocating CAS being introduced for all routes flown by passenger flights which would probably mean the whole country covered in CAS.
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Also, Radar, given that the regulator and service providers will, of course, argue that they are furnishing operators with 'adequate protection', it is then for the operator (alone) to determine whether the operational framework provides an acceptable risk mix to justify their case for providing CAT. In making that decision, the operator's accountable manager should take advice from appropriate sources. This does not happen in the real world.
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Voroff,
Yes great idea. What would the problem be with making all the current Class G into Class E from FL75 to FL245?
Makes controlled airspace available for IFR flights and everyone else- GA VFRs, gliders, the military can continue to play as they please.
If it is not done by the CAA then the one sky people will do it in time thankfully.
Anyone who has operated across the North Sea will only be too aware of the risks one must take in UK airspace below FL245 while everyone sticks their heads in the sand.
Regards,
DFC
Yes great idea. What would the problem be with making all the current Class G into Class E from FL75 to FL245?
Makes controlled airspace available for IFR flights and everyone else- GA VFRs, gliders, the military can continue to play as they please.
If it is not done by the CAA then the one sky people will do it in time thankfully.
Anyone who has operated across the North Sea will only be too aware of the risks one must take in UK airspace below FL245 while everyone sticks their heads in the sand.
Regards,
DFC
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A question to the pilots out there regarding the BEL - DUB debate.
About 15 miles east of the direct route there is a perfectly good airway. How much would it actually reduce profitability to use this and have the protection of CAS? I know it's not the main issue here, but it would be interesting to find out some figures.
About 15 miles east of the direct route there is a perfectly good airway. How much would it actually reduce profitability to use this and have the protection of CAS? I know it's not the main issue here, but it would be interesting to find out some figures.
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Affleck a question you might ask is "why not realign the airspace in general to take account of the problems inherent in the system?". As an approach controller at Belfast it is sometimes less than easy to have everything stuffed down P600...discussions with the Dubs tell us that THEY would like the overflying traffic moved away from their terminal area...aircraft on routes to the south would also like to go on a more direct routing.Seems to me everyone would like it ...lets redesign it to work! I am not suggesting that P600 is shifted west ...but we could have a fillet with rising levels from the western edge of the Belfast TMA on a straight line to a position just about NEVRI ..that would do it....DISCUSS
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<DFC>
Class E ? It may be called a "controlled airspace" but it ain't a known traffic environment. In fact you are as safe in that as in Class G. Anyone can be in there VFR and need not have the permission of ATC - so radar cannot guarantee your safety any more than they can in Class G.
Perhaps you meant Class C ? Controlled VFR ?
<Sir Toppam Hattam>
Downgrading to a FIS? "How difficult can it be to call in a load of strangers?"
Well when you work a 200 mile sector on a 15 inch PC World computer monitor where the labels are wider than the 10 mile airways, it becomes bloody impossible to distinguish the multitude of F3s swarming around off St Abbs Head. Especially when they continually activate our SMF (Separation Monitoring Function - or snooper) and result in multiple distracting flashing targets all over the screen - which the software can't seem to hook quickly enough. AND their mode C is often absent as they turn and climb at numerous G, together with garbling Mode A responses.
<rant on>
Oh, yes and it isn't just the 4 or 5 Jetstreams working up and down the coast we are working - we do the P18/L602 roundabout at NEW, AND all the P600 traffic into Aberdeen, so we might have anything up to 14 aircraft or more on frequency. Which might explain why we get a little touchy at the totally pointless and inane calls from the organ-grinders monkey at Boulmer/Buchan "requesting info on your 1234 squawk". Invariably the ac is 100 miles outside our sector, so not only are they calling the WRONG SECTOR
, but usually timed to perfection at just the worst possible moment, AND taking over 30 secs (with numerous 'standby for controller' 
) when most other agencies can elucidate the point in 10. Don't the FCs have an up to date post WW2 map of our ScACC sectors?
<rant off>
My question in response - "How difficult can it be, given that D613A/B/C are there for the use of Boulmer/Buchan etc... TO ACTUALLY USE THEM "?
I have lost count of the number of times that they are notified as active ...with no apparent activity inside them - but $hitloads outside. And then .... just as they are about to close ... the F3s go into them. As they say in Chewing the Fat .....
"Radar service terminated .."
Or am I missing something here ?
Class E ? It may be called a "controlled airspace" but it ain't a known traffic environment. In fact you are as safe in that as in Class G. Anyone can be in there VFR and need not have the permission of ATC - so radar cannot guarantee your safety any more than they can in Class G.
Perhaps you meant Class C ? Controlled VFR ?
<Sir Toppam Hattam>
Downgrading to a FIS? "How difficult can it be to call in a load of strangers?"
Well when you work a 200 mile sector on a 15 inch PC World computer monitor where the labels are wider than the 10 mile airways, it becomes bloody impossible to distinguish the multitude of F3s swarming around off St Abbs Head. Especially when they continually activate our SMF (Separation Monitoring Function - or snooper) and result in multiple distracting flashing targets all over the screen - which the software can't seem to hook quickly enough. AND their mode C is often absent as they turn and climb at numerous G, together with garbling Mode A responses.
<rant on>
Oh, yes and it isn't just the 4 or 5 Jetstreams working up and down the coast we are working - we do the P18/L602 roundabout at NEW, AND all the P600 traffic into Aberdeen, so we might have anything up to 14 aircraft or more on frequency. Which might explain why we get a little touchy at the totally pointless and inane calls from the organ-grinders monkey at Boulmer/Buchan "requesting info on your 1234 squawk". Invariably the ac is 100 miles outside our sector, so not only are they calling the WRONG SECTOR
, but usually timed to perfection at just the worst possible moment, AND taking over 30 secs (with numerous 'standby for controller' ) when most other agencies can elucidate the point in 10. Don't the FCs have an up to date post WW2 map of our ScACC sectors?<rant off>
My question in response - "How difficult can it be, given that D613A/B/C are there for the use of Boulmer/Buchan etc... TO ACTUALLY USE THEM "?
I have lost count of the number of times that they are notified as active ...with no apparent activity inside them - but $hitloads outside. And then .... just as they are about to close ... the F3s go into them. As they say in Chewing the Fat .....
"Radar service terminated .."
Or am I missing something here ?
Last edited by PH-UKU; 11th Feb 2005 at 14:41.
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DFC - Class E from FL75 - 245 won't work for the majority of military sorties. It would work fine if mil ac just transited in straight lines, but not for manoeuvring 8 ac sorties etc.
PH & RO -
1. Inane calls from FC units have been a recurring theme for a while now. If you have been on the receiving end of a 2 minute complete waste of time call from an FC unit whilst you're maxxed out, then when you get off console, ring the Fighter Allocator and complain in calm tones. Also, on those rare occasions that you get a visit from an FC, have a bl**dy good whinge. If no one complains about anything then our training regime won't change. We do want to operate with minimum inconvenience to the rest of the world. After all, we need your goodwill just as much as you'd like ours.
2. Yes, we do have up to date maps of your sectors, if people are getting it wrong (no one's perfect) then again, ring the Allocator afterwards and whinge.
3. Unfortunately "standby for controller" is a fact of life, as our ops rooms are set up for fighting wars when there ain't much co-ordination on a mil controller to civil controller basis required!
4. MDAs, this isn't rocket science! As you well know, MDA bookings are confirmed the morning of the preceding day, with bids put in by squadrons sometimes several weeks in advance. Now, if the Met man gets the weather wrong and instead of good VMC there's a huge cu nim in the centre of the 613 / 323 Complex, then we usually can't carry out our missions in that airspace. Therefore, the crews will usually operate in the nearest decent patch of weather, hence what you are seeing. If the sorties cancel then we hand back the MDAs to MABCC as a matter of course, which in turn lets you guys in.
Please feel free to discuss further / start new thread!!
Regards, ADIS
Edited to make the grammar even worser.
PH & RO -
1. Inane calls from FC units have been a recurring theme for a while now. If you have been on the receiving end of a 2 minute complete waste of time call from an FC unit whilst you're maxxed out, then when you get off console, ring the Fighter Allocator and complain in calm tones. Also, on those rare occasions that you get a visit from an FC, have a bl**dy good whinge. If no one complains about anything then our training regime won't change. We do want to operate with minimum inconvenience to the rest of the world. After all, we need your goodwill just as much as you'd like ours.
2. Yes, we do have up to date maps of your sectors, if people are getting it wrong (no one's perfect) then again, ring the Allocator afterwards and whinge.
3. Unfortunately "standby for controller" is a fact of life, as our ops rooms are set up for fighting wars when there ain't much co-ordination on a mil controller to civil controller basis required!
4. MDAs, this isn't rocket science! As you well know, MDA bookings are confirmed the morning of the preceding day, with bids put in by squadrons sometimes several weeks in advance. Now, if the Met man gets the weather wrong and instead of good VMC there's a huge cu nim in the centre of the 613 / 323 Complex, then we usually can't carry out our missions in that airspace. Therefore, the crews will usually operate in the nearest decent patch of weather, hence what you are seeing. If the sorties cancel then we hand back the MDAs to MABCC as a matter of course, which in turn lets you guys in.
Please feel free to discuss further / start new thread!!
Regards, ADIS
Edited to make the grammar even worser.
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Having worked in various parts of the world,Middle East and Hongkong,is believe that the airspace between ADN and NEW is some of the most dangerous I have seen anywhere.At least the military in the Middle East talked to you
How airlines can operate in this war zone,and pretend that they are protecting passengers is beyond me.The guys who offer services to Eastflights,KLM,BMI etc who tank through a shooting gallery,mixing it with anything and everything that the RAF and other Airforces has to offer,should be given massive pay rises (and early retirement).
And what do we have now? P18 between ADN and NEW when the RAF are in their beds.YEAH GREAT !! Will it stop the cowboys ploughing on direct... NO. Will it increase safety...NO. Why have it? ????? Ask the RAF.
When I see the 613's becoming active I cringe.Eastflight are getting pretty busy now at ABZ at all times and over 90% use this route.It's just a matter of time before there is real nasty in this area,and I hope that I'm not on when it happens.
How airlines can operate in this war zone,and pretend that they are protecting passengers is beyond me.The guys who offer services to Eastflights,KLM,BMI etc who tank through a shooting gallery,mixing it with anything and everything that the RAF and other Airforces has to offer,should be given massive pay rises (and early retirement).
And what do we have now? P18 between ADN and NEW when the RAF are in their beds.YEAH GREAT !! Will it stop the cowboys ploughing on direct... NO. Will it increase safety...NO. Why have it? ????? Ask the RAF.
When I see the 613's becoming active I cringe.Eastflight are getting pretty busy now at ABZ at all times and over 90% use this route.It's just a matter of time before there is real nasty in this area,and I hope that I'm not on when it happens.
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PH-UKU,
I know that the VFRs can be in there without talking to anyone..........just like parts of the Scottish TMA and Belfast TMA. However, when flying IFR in Class G my worry is not a VFR flight cause they will be in VMC and in order to hit them we have to be also but the other IFR flights that may be encountered in IMC.
If one looks at the typical profile of all the flights in Class G, the majority operate at or below 3000ft, less up to 5000ft and few above that level.
Making it all Class E above say FL75 would have minimal impact on civil operations normally conducted in Class G and for those who prefer to go IFR in class G, there is space between the Classs E base and the MSA for those crazy people.
ADIS5000,
As far as I am aware, the military are exempt from the requirements of the ANO and ICAO........No military person in their right mind wants a collision or even a near collision in any airspace. Being able to transit airspace where one can operate VMC without restriction or IMC with a service from a military unit and where all other IMC traffic is known traffic makes safety sense and improves the current situation without any restriction.
FL75 also is high enough for low level pull ups to MSA anywhere without infringing that airspace.
Have a look at what they do in France where most of the country is Class E airways to low level.
Regards,
DFC
I know that the VFRs can be in there without talking to anyone..........just like parts of the Scottish TMA and Belfast TMA. However, when flying IFR in Class G my worry is not a VFR flight cause they will be in VMC and in order to hit them we have to be also but the other IFR flights that may be encountered in IMC.
If one looks at the typical profile of all the flights in Class G, the majority operate at or below 3000ft, less up to 5000ft and few above that level.
Making it all Class E above say FL75 would have minimal impact on civil operations normally conducted in Class G and for those who prefer to go IFR in class G, there is space between the Classs E base and the MSA for those crazy people.
ADIS5000,
As far as I am aware, the military are exempt from the requirements of the ANO and ICAO........No military person in their right mind wants a collision or even a near collision in any airspace. Being able to transit airspace where one can operate VMC without restriction or IMC with a service from a military unit and where all other IMC traffic is known traffic makes safety sense and improves the current situation without any restriction.
FL75 also is high enough for low level pull ups to MSA anywhere without infringing that airspace.
Have a look at what they do in France where most of the country is Class E airways to low level.
Regards,
DFC
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throw a dyce
Have to say that myself and the majority of my colleagues would rather have class 'A' oversea, ADN - NEW, permanently active instead of the ‘compromise’ that exists. That way it's black and white, if you're in it we stay away. Keeping it oversea would cause mil crews only moderate inconvenience, and probably only put approx 10 miles or so (guess) onto the Eastflight / Easyjet routes. I think that the reason we don't have Class A is because there is huge resistance from the mil flying types. Specifically that they would then have no options for repositioning due to wx if there was an airway in place. However, the frequent dramas that take place in the vicinity of D609 surely cannot continue indefinitely? The EGQL / EGPD / FC liaison meetings should hopefully address this.
DFC
Still not convinced, due to the manoeuvring nature of our work and SFC – FL350+ height block we often use. But I’m off to read up on Class ‘E’!
Regards, ADIS
Have to say that myself and the majority of my colleagues would rather have class 'A' oversea, ADN - NEW, permanently active instead of the ‘compromise’ that exists. That way it's black and white, if you're in it we stay away. Keeping it oversea would cause mil crews only moderate inconvenience, and probably only put approx 10 miles or so (guess) onto the Eastflight / Easyjet routes. I think that the reason we don't have Class A is because there is huge resistance from the mil flying types. Specifically that they would then have no options for repositioning due to wx if there was an airway in place. However, the frequent dramas that take place in the vicinity of D609 surely cannot continue indefinitely? The EGQL / EGPD / FC liaison meetings should hopefully address this.
DFC
Still not convinced, due to the manoeuvring nature of our work and SFC – FL350+ height block we often use. But I’m off to read up on Class ‘E’!
Regards, ADIS
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Still not convinced, due to the manoeuvring nature of our work and SFC – FL350+ height block we often use
Since everything from FL245to FL660 is currently class B in the UK and in order to conform to the single sky requirement everything from FL195 up will be Class C soon, I fail to see how you can have no problem manouvering in that class of airspace but would have a problem with class E.
Perhaps you should read up on flexible use of airspace, one sky and MOAs.
Regards,
DFC
Since everything from FL245to FL660 is currently class B in the UK and in order to conform to the single sky requirement everything from FL195 up will be Class C soon, I fail to see how you can have no problem manouvering in that class of airspace but would have a problem with class E.
Perhaps you should read up on flexible use of airspace, one sky and MOAs.
Regards,
DFC
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Last edited by RogerOut; 16th Feb 2005 at 18:19.