Primary Radar Scanners
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Primary Radar Scanners
As an interested onlooker, I was wondering what factors are significant when a U.K. airport selects a replacement radar head, apart from purchase price. From the airports I've seen in this country, there doesn't appear to be much choice. It seems you either have to go for a Marconi S511 or a Siemens Plessey
Watchman, although I believe Staverton has something called a MARIS.
Virtually all the NATS airports have the Watchman, except for Cardiff which has a Marconi ! Do any controllers have any preference, or is there not much between the systems on offer.
Thanks in anticipation.
Watchman, although I believe Staverton has something called a MARIS.
Virtually all the NATS airports have the Watchman, except for Cardiff which has a Marconi ! Do any controllers have any preference, or is there not much between the systems on offer.
Thanks in anticipation.
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<<Do any controllers have any preference, or is there not much between the systems on offer.>>
Controllers' preferences do not enter the equation at all if they are employed by a large ATS provider. At smaller units they may well have some say in the matter. The "powers that be" select a particular piece of equipment and the controllers have to get on with it. I personally preferred the old-fashioned "raw" radar to the new-fangled digital scan-converted stuff... but new controllers only know the current equipment and are, presumably, happy.
Actually, when all is said and done there probably isn't a great deal of difference between particular pieces of gear provided they meet the requirements for the task in hand. All the controller sees is a radar display and he will be (reasonably) happy if it shows what he wants to see. However, as I suggested earlier, most don't get a lot of choice.
Controllers' preferences do not enter the equation at all if they are employed by a large ATS provider. At smaller units they may well have some say in the matter. The "powers that be" select a particular piece of equipment and the controllers have to get on with it. I personally preferred the old-fashioned "raw" radar to the new-fangled digital scan-converted stuff... but new controllers only know the current equipment and are, presumably, happy.
Actually, when all is said and done there probably isn't a great deal of difference between particular pieces of gear provided they meet the requirements for the task in hand. All the controller sees is a radar display and he will be (reasonably) happy if it shows what he wants to see. However, as I suggested earlier, most don't get a lot of choice.
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There are no other factors. Airports are run by beancounters, not people with any sense.
Still, I've worked on 511 at my last three units and it's fine. Mind you, it's not the buying of the radar that's the problem, it's whether the beancounters shell out for a proper maintenance and spares package, which in my experience, they don't.
Still, I've worked on 511 at my last three units and it's fine. Mind you, it's not the buying of the radar that's the problem, it's whether the beancounters shell out for a proper maintenance and spares package, which in my experience, they don't.
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Used both the S511 and the Watchman, both quatum leaps over the AR1 (or AR1.5!).
Both provide extremely good coverage with little loss of signal (fibre Optic cabling) The real clincher is the type of displays they can be used with. There are a lot of options, mostly expensive and beancounters will usually ensure that you end up with the "base" model.
The Watchman "Crown" consoles that the kit originally came with were pretty basic, but again quite an improvement over that which they replaced.
Nowadays Colour displays are much more popular, and user friendly (Just don't get the Royal College of Art to do the colours, they'll completely muck it up.. see Swanwick)
Rgds BEX
Both provide extremely good coverage with little loss of signal (fibre Optic cabling) The real clincher is the type of displays they can be used with. There are a lot of options, mostly expensive and beancounters will usually ensure that you end up with the "base" model.
The Watchman "Crown" consoles that the kit originally came with were pretty basic, but again quite an improvement over that which they replaced.
Nowadays Colour displays are much more popular, and user friendly (Just don't get the Royal College of Art to do the colours, they'll completely muck it up.. see Swanwick)
Rgds BEX
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Many thanks to those of you who have taken the trouble to reply.
It's a shame that it appears that beancounters' and management preferences take precedence over those of the controllers. Maybe there simply isn't that much difference at the end of the day, as long as the display is good quality.
Can't speak for the AR-1 but I once witnessed the picture of an old Plessey 430 in action. Could hardly see a thing ! Mind that was about seventeen years ago when this particular airport was still using PPI displays and had no SSR. Thankfully things have moved on. It's also interesting to note that although virtually all airports have SSR capability these days not all have their own SSR hog trough, e.g. the NATS airports, Bournemouth and Newcastle are sorted OK. Are there any obvious advantages to owning your own SSR gear as opposed to buying the data in from another site ??
It's a shame that it appears that beancounters' and management preferences take precedence over those of the controllers. Maybe there simply isn't that much difference at the end of the day, as long as the display is good quality.
Can't speak for the AR-1 but I once witnessed the picture of an old Plessey 430 in action. Could hardly see a thing ! Mind that was about seventeen years ago when this particular airport was still using PPI displays and had no SSR. Thankfully things have moved on. It's also interesting to note that although virtually all airports have SSR capability these days not all have their own SSR hog trough, e.g. the NATS airports, Bournemouth and Newcastle are sorted OK. Are there any obvious advantages to owning your own SSR gear as opposed to buying the data in from another site ??
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From memory, the criteria used for a radar's ability to detect a target is based upon a 1 sq meter cross-section at max operating range, which for airport radars tends to have a cut off at about 60nm. Although, 80nm seems to ring a bell for some reason.
I also seem to recall the the LL Watchman was replaced by a Raytheon sensor a couple of years ago.
There needs to be a bit of care taken when talking about "radar". The detection performance is almost entirely down to the equipment out at the radar head. The processing and display side of things offers a much wider set of options in terms of equipment and display technology, and it is the bit (usually) in the equipment room adjacent to the controllers.
I can't think of any NATS units that still use a genuinely analogue picture, I suspect that they're all plot extracted these days.
ST
I also seem to recall the the LL Watchman was replaced by a Raytheon sensor a couple of years ago.
There needs to be a bit of care taken when talking about "radar". The detection performance is almost entirely down to the equipment out at the radar head. The processing and display side of things offers a much wider set of options in terms of equipment and display technology, and it is the bit (usually) in the equipment room adjacent to the controllers.
I can't think of any NATS units that still use a genuinely analogue picture, I suspect that they're all plot extracted these days.
ST
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Yes there ARE advanatges to having your own SSR.
Relying on a "third party" supplier means you are completely in their hands when they decide to withdraw the SSR for maintenance, upgrade etc.
Having your own means you can decide the best times for maintenance, or upgrade.
Southampton (Solent Radar) have been "victims" of this. Their only SSR feed is from NATS Pease Pottage site near Gatwick. this has been withrawn for lengthy periods for maint, and currently is undergoing a major rebuild. So no SSR for Solent.
Meanwhile, down the road in sunny Bournemouth, they have their own SSR antenna and rarely have to work without it. They can withdraw it at a time convienent to themselves for maint.
Of course COST is the big thing here (as ever), so it may well be cheaper to "buy in" SSR data, however unreliable. Certainly the afore mentioned beancounters will see it this way.
Me? I'd go for my own source for the reasons above, or perhaps two feeds from a third party (Farnborough had this years ago).
Rgds BEX
Relying on a "third party" supplier means you are completely in their hands when they decide to withdraw the SSR for maintenance, upgrade etc.
Having your own means you can decide the best times for maintenance, or upgrade.
Southampton (Solent Radar) have been "victims" of this. Their only SSR feed is from NATS Pease Pottage site near Gatwick. this has been withrawn for lengthy periods for maint, and currently is undergoing a major rebuild. So no SSR for Solent.
Meanwhile, down the road in sunny Bournemouth, they have their own SSR antenna and rarely have to work without it. They can withdraw it at a time convienent to themselves for maint.
Of course COST is the big thing here (as ever), so it may well be cheaper to "buy in" SSR data, however unreliable. Certainly the afore mentioned beancounters will see it this way.
Me? I'd go for my own source for the reasons above, or perhaps two feeds from a third party (Farnborough had this years ago).
Rgds BEX
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Bex,
Your comments are well directed. As one who has worked (maintained) AR-1, AR-15, ACR-430, Watchman and many others over the past 25 years I completely agree with your point about processing and display equipment. These are the keys to provinding the best (in my opinion) service to the controllers.
The Watchmans Signal Processing makes for a very clean and tidy picture compared to days of old. With a new display (PC based) system the final output can be very impressive. I have recently put a system in overseas which has Watchman feeding through to Alpha workstations driving Barco 29" CRT displays. Even I was impressed! Just a shame the budget would not extend to the new 29" ISIS LCD panels.
Contracting in the service seems to be gaining popularity with the bean-counters. It can all be tied up in contracts and put to bed - in theory. Sounds like the easy management option.
Subject to an appropriate budget (!) an airfield will NEVER be able to beat having its own primary, secondary and relevant maintenance staff.
What prices operational safety.
cheers all,
Bear 555
Your comments are well directed. As one who has worked (maintained) AR-1, AR-15, ACR-430, Watchman and many others over the past 25 years I completely agree with your point about processing and display equipment. These are the keys to provinding the best (in my opinion) service to the controllers.
The Watchmans Signal Processing makes for a very clean and tidy picture compared to days of old. With a new display (PC based) system the final output can be very impressive. I have recently put a system in overseas which has Watchman feeding through to Alpha workstations driving Barco 29" CRT displays. Even I was impressed! Just a shame the budget would not extend to the new 29" ISIS LCD panels.
Contracting in the service seems to be gaining popularity with the bean-counters. It can all be tied up in contracts and put to bed - in theory. Sounds like the easy management option.
Subject to an appropriate budget (!) an airfield will NEVER be able to beat having its own primary, secondary and relevant maintenance staff.
What prices operational safety.
cheers all,
Bear 555
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From my dim and very distant past,
Hypothetical radar target = 10 Square metres (Icao 15 Square metres).
Whats it mean? No idea now, but it's the max range Radar equation as taught (drilled into me) by the John Townsend school of Radar theory... I think....
Other "gems" dimly remembered from that era are "Tangential Fade" , often referred to as Tangenital fade (a factor of age methinks
) and "Blind Speed"
How things have changed.....
rgds BEX
Hypothetical radar target = 10 Square metres (Icao 15 Square metres).
Range Max = the 4th Root of Pt G theta Ar, over 16 pi Pr min (in metres)
Other "gems" dimly remembered from that era are "Tangential Fade" , often referred to as Tangenital fade (a factor of age methinks
) and "Blind Speed"How things have changed.....
rgds BEX
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Pmin = minimum receiver power - the weakest signal the receiver can detect.
Ae = effective aperture = the area of the antenna that collects the received signal.
Theta = radar cross-sectional area of the target.
Pt = peak transmitter power.
I can't dig out my radar notes at the moment but I think the equation I was taught at college (marine radar) also included the radar wavelength, pulse repetition frequency, pulse width and antenna rotation speed.
My brain hurts now!
Ae = effective aperture = the area of the antenna that collects the received signal.
Theta = radar cross-sectional area of the target.
Pt = peak transmitter power.
I can't dig out my radar notes at the moment but I think the equation I was taught at college (marine radar) also included the radar wavelength, pulse repetition frequency, pulse width and antenna rotation speed.
My brain hurts now!
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HD you wrote
"I personally preferred the old-fashioned "raw" radar"--
Does that mean you used to look forwards to Wednesdays when the ACR6 was off and we used to manage with the Marconi 264??
"I personally preferred the old-fashioned "raw" radar"--
Does that mean you used to look forwards to Wednesdays when the ACR6 was off and we used to manage with the Marconi 264??
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<<Does that mean you used to look forwards to Wednesdays when the ACR6 was off and we used to manage with the Marconi 264??>>
You mean when Tiny got his screwdriver going on the ACR6..... and those half-crown size blips on the 264? Good old days..
You mean when Tiny got his screwdriver going on the ACR6..... and those half-crown size blips on the 264? Good old days..
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I heard a story maybe 40 years ago that Marconi went to (Windy) Wellington, NZ to instal a 264. They decided the best place was on top of a very high hill but locals said the wind would be too strong and it wouldn't last. The Marconi blokes were unimpressed and said their gear could withstand anything. First strong wind and the antenna blew off the hill!
Anyone confirm that or is it "one of those stories"?
Anyone confirm that or is it "one of those stories"?
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Thankyou again everyone. Is there anyone out there still using the old PPI displays ? Last one I saw was at Blackpool in '97. Green graphics rather than the usual orange; lovely bright and clear picture though. Shame the radar head wasn't turning !
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HD
Don't know about Wellington, but the military had a scanner not dissimilar to a 264's atop Saxa Vord Hill in the Shetlands. One night the picture disappeared and on investigation the head was sat quite happily in Burrafirth at the bottom of the hill. Guiness book of records had an entry saying although it wasn't measured it's thought that the gust was in excess of 150Kts! (the pictorial proof was on the wall in the Station Commanders Office).
Of course, there's still a 264 in use in the UK, and the displays are Watchman consoles as opposed to rasters - still does the job alright though (mind you - SRA's are interesting )
Don't know about Wellington, but the military had a scanner not dissimilar to a 264's atop Saxa Vord Hill in the Shetlands. One night the picture disappeared and on investigation the head was sat quite happily in Burrafirth at the bottom of the hill. Guiness book of records had an entry saying although it wasn't measured it's thought that the gust was in excess of 150Kts! (the pictorial proof was on the wall in the Station Commanders Office).
Of course, there's still a 264 in use in the UK, and the displays are Watchman consoles as opposed to rasters - still does the job alright though (mind you - SRA's are interesting
)
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No longer in use, but I've got 3 Kelvin Hughes PPI's you can buy and a KH Nucleus raster display...as seen on the bridges of super tankers! They're all gathering dust in our maintenance shed. The last of our 430 scanners was last seen heading south on the M5 strapped to the back of a flat bed transit....
The MARIS 900 (which used to be an ACR430 in a former life) runs on 20" Belnea monitors as found in PC World!!
The MARIS 900 (which used to be an ACR430 in a former life) runs on 20" Belnea monitors as found in PC World!!
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<<mind you - SRA's are interesting >>
I'll bet! I remember doing SRAs on the 264 at Heathrow. The target was as wide as the two runways centrelines! Answer was to wind the gain down until you just had a pinprick blip (about the size of a sixpence)!
I'll bet! I remember doing SRAs on the 264 at Heathrow. The target was as wide as the two runways centrelines! Answer was to wind the gain down until you just had a pinprick blip (about the size of a sixpence)!