The Mil and their use of QFE
If you don't like the service we are providing at Class 'D' airfields then we can offer you a re route. Keeps you away from us, and perhaps will stop you commenting on things that are outwith our control. We do our best within the rules, as said before if you don't want to fly on the QFE then stay away from the airspace.
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In the UK there is no such block of airspace which extends from the surface up to 45,000 ft. Everything above FL245 is Controlled Airspace. Also if you were flying at 24,500 ft on the regional pressure then there is a danger that you could be above FL245 and entered CAS illegally.
In the UK there is no such block of airspace which extends from the surface up to 45,000 ft. Everything above FL245 is Controlled Airspace. Also if you were flying at 24,500 ft on the regional pressure then there is a danger that you could be above FL245 and entered CAS illegally.
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ILS 119.5, you're absolutely wrong. There are blocks (very big ones at that), which go from 5000ft to 55000ft (promulgated in the AIP) with class G below. If one is cleared into these blocks, there is nothing that would necessarily stop you goinng from 55 grand down to sea level. that
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I think that maybe the time has come for a review of the altimeter setting procedures used by military ATC in the UK. This thread already highlights some areas where the current procedures do not seem to be best practice or are liable to cause confusion.
As an example (and by know means wishing to cause embarrassment to stillin1) he mentions on page 1 of the thread that transit traffic in IMC will be told the Sector Safety Altitude based on the QFE. Surely this should be refered to as the Sector Safety Height? Whilst I think I know what he was getting at, it shows that confussion can easily arise (especially for simple minded pilots like myself).
A statement by whowhenwhy saying that traffic outside the pattern should be on an RPS when below TA is also illuminating. My dusty old MATS part 1 says that RPS should be used "at, or below 3000' amsl when outside controlled airspace and not in the vicinity of an aerodrome". Now, it seems to me that you have to be in the vicinity of an aerodrome in order to receive a LARS, otherwise there would be no radio/radar contact or the pilot would be outside of the operational area of the unit and hence the sevice would have been refused. Furthermore, if you have just transitted a zone (under QFE) I do not see how the next pressure setting given can be the RPS. How can you transit a zone and then not be in the vicinity of an aerodrome?
I fly in the South East of England where a lot of the airspace above me has its lower level defined as an altitude. The last setting I want to use is RPS which is the lowest FORECAST QNH and hence could put me closer to my work colleagues above me than I want to be on a day off!
As a parting thought, the controllers at Seaton TWR use QFE for circuit/landing traffic and QNH for transit traffic as do many other units around the country, so this type of operation is not without precendent and help and advice should be readily available.
As always, just my view.
G W-H
As an example (and by know means wishing to cause embarrassment to stillin1) he mentions on page 1 of the thread that transit traffic in IMC will be told the Sector Safety Altitude based on the QFE. Surely this should be refered to as the Sector Safety Height? Whilst I think I know what he was getting at, it shows that confussion can easily arise (especially for simple minded pilots like myself).
A statement by whowhenwhy saying that traffic outside the pattern should be on an RPS when below TA is also illuminating. My dusty old MATS part 1 says that RPS should be used "at, or below 3000' amsl when outside controlled airspace and not in the vicinity of an aerodrome". Now, it seems to me that you have to be in the vicinity of an aerodrome in order to receive a LARS, otherwise there would be no radio/radar contact or the pilot would be outside of the operational area of the unit and hence the sevice would have been refused. Furthermore, if you have just transitted a zone (under QFE) I do not see how the next pressure setting given can be the RPS. How can you transit a zone and then not be in the vicinity of an aerodrome?
I fly in the South East of England where a lot of the airspace above me has its lower level defined as an altitude. The last setting I want to use is RPS which is the lowest FORECAST QNH and hence could put me closer to my work colleagues above me than I want to be on a day off!
As a parting thought, the controllers at Seaton TWR use QFE for circuit/landing traffic and QNH for transit traffic as do many other units around the country, so this type of operation is not without precendent and help and advice should be readily available.
As always, just my view.
G W-H
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The more I think about this subject, the more I discover that the UK altimeter setting procedures are absolute rubbish. Some examples;
The general transition altitude is well below the highest terrain.
Looking at Brize as an example -
The Transition Altitude is 3000ft but the top of the CTR is defined as an altitude of 3500ft.
The top of a MATZ is 3000ft above the appropriate airfield which in all cases puts it more than 3000ft AMSL thus aircraft passing over the MATS are required (for safety sake) if IFR to fly at a Flight level that keeps them above the fast moving jets that are using QFE. Does the pilot use RPS to assess separation (NO TMA, CTR or other CAS) or does he call the mill ATC unit for QNH only to be given the QFE?............The biggest danger in aviation is not knowing what is going to happen to the flight!
I am amazed that there are not more incidents relating to altimeter setting..........however I could safely say that there are several each day that go unreported or even unnoticed!!
ILS119.5..............have a look at a danger area of the big variety - all have an upper height AMSL. As far as I am aware the ACC use the RPS to separate flights crossing above i.e. use the RPS to determine a minimum FL..........however aircraft operating within the danger area could be using the QFE of an aerodrome within it!!!!!
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KPax,
Perhaps you should review the separation provided in Class D between a VFR flight (transit or otherwise) and any other flight - none. Thus QNH or QFE for a VFR transit aircraft makes little difference because all you do is give traffic info and the pilot does the manoeuvering as required to avoid traffic and maintain VMC............I have received a clearance from you guys to fly VFR at 1500ft QFE when your actual was Overcast 1000ft.....because your circuit was active............not what we would call a good idea
As for IFR - If your field elevation is 500ft and the circuit is 1000ft then you simply want the IFR flights to be not lower than 2500ft on your QNH without giving traffic info!
All very simple for someone to put into local procedures which is always safer than making it up on the fly!
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Giles,
The definition of "In the vicinity of an Aerodrome" is;
Within, entering or leaving the aerodrome traffic circuit.
In other words - the ATZ!
The limits to LARS coverage is based on radar performance, airspace issues, adjacent units, local requirements and last but not least - the CAA limit on the distance at which controllers can provide a radar service without holding an Area Radar rating.
Regards,
DFC
The general transition altitude is well below the highest terrain.
Looking at Brize as an example -
The Transition Altitude is 3000ft but the top of the CTR is defined as an altitude of 3500ft.
The top of a MATZ is 3000ft above the appropriate airfield which in all cases puts it more than 3000ft AMSL thus aircraft passing over the MATS are required (for safety sake) if IFR to fly at a Flight level that keeps them above the fast moving jets that are using QFE. Does the pilot use RPS to assess separation (NO TMA, CTR or other CAS) or does he call the mill ATC unit for QNH only to be given the QFE?............The biggest danger in aviation is not knowing what is going to happen to the flight!
I am amazed that there are not more incidents relating to altimeter setting..........however I could safely say that there are several each day that go unreported or even unnoticed!!
ILS119.5..............have a look at a danger area of the big variety - all have an upper height AMSL. As far as I am aware the ACC use the RPS to separate flights crossing above i.e. use the RPS to determine a minimum FL..........however aircraft operating within the danger area could be using the QFE of an aerodrome within it!!!!!
---
KPax,
Perhaps you should review the separation provided in Class D between a VFR flight (transit or otherwise) and any other flight - none. Thus QNH or QFE for a VFR transit aircraft makes little difference because all you do is give traffic info and the pilot does the manoeuvering as required to avoid traffic and maintain VMC............I have received a clearance from you guys to fly VFR at 1500ft QFE when your actual was Overcast 1000ft.....because your circuit was active............not what we would call a good idea
As for IFR - If your field elevation is 500ft and the circuit is 1000ft then you simply want the IFR flights to be not lower than 2500ft on your QNH without giving traffic info!
All very simple for someone to put into local procedures which is always safer than making it up on the fly!
---
Giles,
The definition of "In the vicinity of an Aerodrome" is;
Within, entering or leaving the aerodrome traffic circuit.
In other words - the ATZ!
The limits to LARS coverage is based on radar performance, airspace issues, adjacent units, local requirements and last but not least - the CAA limit on the distance at which controllers can provide a radar service without holding an Area Radar rating.
Regards,
DFC
Hi Giles,
Drifting off topic a bit, but in response to your...
"I fly in the South East of England where a lot of the airspace above me has its lower level defined as an altitude. The last setting I want to use is RPS which is the lowest FORECAST QNH and hence could put me closer to my work colleagues above me than I want to be on a day off!"
I routinely provide a service to traffic transiting under airspace with lower limits defined as an altitude. I won't pass this traffic the RPS, I'll pass the pressure datum the airspace is based on. I would be surprised if you were given any other pressure if operating close to the limits of said airspace.
Best Regards,
LXGB
Drifting off topic a bit, but in response to your...
"I fly in the South East of England where a lot of the airspace above me has its lower level defined as an altitude. The last setting I want to use is RPS which is the lowest FORECAST QNH and hence could put me closer to my work colleagues above me than I want to be on a day off!"
I routinely provide a service to traffic transiting under airspace with lower limits defined as an altitude. I won't pass this traffic the RPS, I'll pass the pressure datum the airspace is based on. I would be surprised if you were given any other pressure if operating close to the limits of said airspace.
Best Regards,
LXGB
Last edited by LXGB; 1st Feb 2005 at 12:21.
The Vis cct is 1000' QFE, SPC 1500' QFE, RTC 2000' QFE, Procedure Pattern height (NDB, TAC) 2500' QFE. We try our best using the premise that if you are VFR and you are not visual with IFR traffic then we will separate you. We very rarely have problems and our procedures appear to work very well receiving not many complaints at all. As stated before if you don't feel comfortable with what we are doing then go west with Bristol or east with Brize.
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Wow what a hot topic! At my RAF civil manned unit we still have QGHs and Spiral Descents!! All Mil IAPs are flown on QFE, which seems to make sense to me as under a high workload, the man in the hot seat in the sky (who is after all our raison d'etre) doesn't have to think about whether he's about to hit the floor or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both civil and mil IAPs give both altitudes and heights on approach plates, so the pilot can in fact please himself. The ATCO, I think, should, and generally does, carry out any correction required for separation, as he/she already does on low pressure days between highest Alt and lowest FL.
As for separation, we can only apply 500' between mil flights. Civ vs civ or civ vs mil get MATS1 standard separation.
And I also believe I'm correct in saying that MATS1 states that all a/c are to be given QFE before commencing Final Apch, unless the pilot has stated, or it is known that the pilot/operator lands QNH.
Hope I haven't left myself open to a broadside.......
As for separation, we can only apply 500' between mil flights. Civ vs civ or civ vs mil get MATS1 standard separation.
And I also believe I'm correct in saying that MATS1 states that all a/c are to be given QFE before commencing Final Apch, unless the pilot has stated, or it is known that the pilot/operator lands QNH.
Hope I haven't left myself open to a broadside.......
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KPax,
Bit hard for a VFR flight to be visual with an IFR flight that is in cloud. However, provided the VFR flight remains outside cloud then the IFR flight who is inside that cloud is separated (segregated) from the VFR flight........if they are both in VMC then see and avoid applies in Class D with traffic info from ATC to help.
If you are using radar of course the info provided to you via SSR is always referenced to 1013.2 Thus provided that you decide to put QFE or QNH into the processor, you will get the appropriate readout to judge separation by regardless of what we set on our altimeter!!!
If we have an uncomfortable experience (safety) in any airspace we report the matter and then next time expect a more comfortable experience!
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Lord Seven,
Please advise QTH as I would love to come and do a speechless, compass and gyro U/S flameout descent.....haven't done one in decades!!!
In class D separation is only provided between IFR-IFR-Special VFR. VFR flights are not separated from anything and nothing is separated from VFR!!!.........Basically, the only thing that the mil gain from having class D is that it removes the option from the VFR flight to corss without bothering to call which can happen in a MATZ.
Regards,
DFC
Bit hard for a VFR flight to be visual with an IFR flight that is in cloud. However, provided the VFR flight remains outside cloud then the IFR flight who is inside that cloud is separated (segregated) from the VFR flight........if they are both in VMC then see and avoid applies in Class D with traffic info from ATC to help.
If you are using radar of course the info provided to you via SSR is always referenced to 1013.2 Thus provided that you decide to put QFE or QNH into the processor, you will get the appropriate readout to judge separation by regardless of what we set on our altimeter!!!
If we have an uncomfortable experience (safety) in any airspace we report the matter and then next time expect a more comfortable experience!
---
Lord Seven,
Please advise QTH as I would love to come and do a speechless, compass and gyro U/S flameout descent.....haven't done one in decades!!!
In class D separation is only provided between IFR-IFR-Special VFR. VFR flights are not separated from anything and nothing is separated from VFR!!!.........Basically, the only thing that the mil gain from having class D is that it removes the option from the VFR flight to corss without bothering to call which can happen in a MATZ.
Regards,
DFC
'If the VFR ac is VMC and the IFR is IMC then as long as the VFR is clear of cloud then hthey are separate' not sure what the ATCEB would say to that. 1000' QFE is our separation standard for Mil against Civ, only in exceptional circumstances and if the Civ pilot is happy do we reduce to 500'. The bottom line is if the VFR is not visual with the IFR then he must avoid.
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<<However, provided the VFR flight remains outside cloud then the IFR flight who is inside that cloud is separated (segregated) from the VFR flight>>
I don't recall seeing this in any manual. Please quote the reference DFC..
I don't recall seeing this in any manual. Please quote the reference DFC..
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DFC
I am not sure about your definition of "in the vicinity". Heathrow have been using "reduced separation in the vicinity of an aerodrome" for years and since their ATZ would not extend much past the ends of the runways, does this mean that their operation has been illegal?????!!
LXGB
I have been passed the RPS on a number of occasions by a unit not a million miles away from Middle Wallop as I was heading in the direction of the TMA, but I always ask for the QNH instead anyway.
Back to QFE for a second. It is worth bearing in mind that the EGPWS must be over-ridden for QFE operations on the Boeings that I fly. Just one of those little things that add to the workload when we conduct QFE operations.
Regards
G W-H
I am not sure about your definition of "in the vicinity". Heathrow have been using "reduced separation in the vicinity of an aerodrome" for years and since their ATZ would not extend much past the ends of the runways, does this mean that their operation has been illegal?????!!
LXGB
I have been passed the RPS on a number of occasions by a unit not a million miles away from Middle Wallop as I was heading in the direction of the TMA, but I always ask for the QNH instead anyway.
Back to QFE for a second. It is worth bearing in mind that the EGPWS must be over-ridden for QFE operations on the Boeings that I fly. Just one of those little things that add to the workload when we conduct QFE operations.
Regards
G W-H
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As a Mil Type currently operating in a Cold part of the world (near a Lake) where QNH reigns, I can say that I prefer it to QFE ops, all this hoop about what the altimeter reads when you hit the runway, IT DOESNT MATTER!!!!! who the hell looks at the altimeter below 200 either on a precision/non precision approach (assuming you are visual) or an a VFR approach?? After all, the height you fly circuits/radar patterns at is just a number, it doesnt matter what that number is. QFE is outdated and unnecessary and having seen and operated under both regimes I would like to see it got rid of. The rest of the civvy world operate on QNH and there is no reason why the RAF/mil guys need to operate on QFE.
I know the counter to this argument is that it isnt difficult to add/subtract before the blunties beat me to it, but if we dont need to do mental gymnastics in the radar pattern then why bother. I would much prefer to just look out the window and remind myself how cool my job is. (assuming it is not IMC)
Get rid of it I say, although I know that for most in the Military it would be like the HM the Queen saying that she wants to be referred to as 'Lil. Did someone say "Jehova"
DS
I know the counter to this argument is that it isnt difficult to add/subtract before the blunties beat me to it, but if we dont need to do mental gymnastics in the radar pattern then why bother. I would much prefer to just look out the window and remind myself how cool my job is. (assuming it is not IMC)
Get rid of it I say, although I know that for most in the Military it would be like the HM the Queen saying that she wants to be referred to as 'Lil. Did someone say "Jehova"
DS
ILS 119.5. WB's SATCO is alluding to other airspace users who use a regional pressure setting to maneouvre up to say 45 000'. In this instance, when coordinating with said users, finding that the 30' per millibar assumption is wrong has come as quite a shock and no-one is quite sure exactly what to do about it.
We presumably agree that if you have an aircraft at 1,000 ft on an altimeter setting of 1013, it will be about 300 ft below an aircraft 1,000 ft on an altimeter setting of 1003.
If you have an aircraft at 45,000 ft on an altimeter setting of 1013, it will still be about 300 ft below an aircraft 45,000 ft on an altimeter setting of 1003.
The first aircraft is 45,000 ft above the 1013 mbar surface, the second is 45,000 ft above the 1003 mbar surface. The difference between the 1013 and 1003 mbar surfaces is about 300 ft.
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Some eastern countries, like Ukraine, had their procedures quite a long time based on QFE.
They are adopting to QNH nowadays. Will the british military adopt, too?
I doubt it. Why? Because it has always been like this!
During my military time we just accepted the QFE for landing in Britain.
British military jockeys came on the radio in old Germany:
"Request all infos for QFE" The empire?
They are adopting to QNH nowadays. Will the british military adopt, too?
I doubt it. Why? Because it has always been like this!
During my military time we just accepted the QFE for landing in Britain.
British military jockeys came on the radio in old Germany:
"Request all infos for QFE" The empire?
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Can't say too mich but I am argueing with my fleet manager at the moment and will be first thing in the morning as to whether we fly over the pond tomorrow on regional qnh or 1013.25!!
Regardless, I will fly on a FL.
Regardless, I will fly on a FL.
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Bookworm,
I have recently done a limited amount of research on the 30ft or not height difference per mb and I can confirm that WBS is correct. The 30ft per millibar difference is only valid up to (very approx) 20 - 23,000ish ft. At 35,000ft the difference can easily be 70ft per millibar! Ring your local Met man for confirmation.
Regards, ADIS
I have recently done a limited amount of research on the 30ft or not height difference per mb and I can confirm that WBS is correct. The 30ft per millibar difference is only valid up to (very approx) 20 - 23,000ish ft. At 35,000ft the difference can easily be 70ft per millibar! Ring your local Met man for confirmation.
Regards, ADIS