Practice Pan
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Practice Pan
This is genuine!
Flying my little taildragger just before Christmas, southern end of Morcambe Bay, changed to 121.5 and called "London, Practice Pan" etc. After second call, London said "call back in quarter of an hour" - Honest! Dutifully called back some 18 mins. later, no reply, called again, when answered by Scottish, who asked me to stand by. ! minute late London asked me to go ahead with the Practice Pan. Are Tea-breaks at LATCC being rationed since I rertired?
Flying my little taildragger just before Christmas, southern end of Morcambe Bay, changed to 121.5 and called "London, Practice Pan" etc. After second call, London said "call back in quarter of an hour" - Honest! Dutifully called back some 18 mins. later, no reply, called again, when answered by Scottish, who asked me to stand by. ! minute late London asked me to go ahead with the Practice Pan. Are Tea-breaks at LATCC being rationed since I rertired?
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Navrad, Have you thought that they might have been busy on another matter? Have you been to D&D for a visit to see and hear about what thay actually do? BTW what was your altitude when you called and were you in their coverage? This isn't a whinge at you but they can be very busy even if Guard is quiet.
Give them a call some other time,the practice call is good training for them as well as you!
Give them a call some other time,the practice call is good training for them as well as you!
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Navrad i was in D&D this morning and asked them about this. D&D will only ask you to call back for a practice if they have an emergency on (remember that they are monitoring two frequencies, 121.5 and 243.0) or if the controllr was unavailable for any reason... including i guess calls of nature!
D&D do have visits - usually arranged (I understand) through "Flier".. and I know that they read PPRuNe!!!!
Mr Chips
D&D do have visits - usually arranged (I understand) through "Flier".. and I know that they read PPRuNe!!!!
Mr Chips
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Yes I have visited D&D. Yes I have had real emergencies with them (RAF & Civilian.) Yes I do know about 243, No. I have never been asked to call back without a reason being given. Perhaps all has changed since I was a Crew Chief.
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Navrad, I am in D&D and while much has probably changed, the way that the job is done hasn't changed that much. As has been mentioned a lot can be going on without anyone needing to be speaking on any of the guard frequencies! Saying that however, I would appreciate it if you could contact us either via email or the phone so that we can talk things through. Try d&[email protected] or (01895) 426471
We're always keen to accept practise PAN calls, questions or visits to help people out. It costs nothing and one day it could make a difference!
We're always keen to accept practise PAN calls, questions or visits to help people out. It costs nothing and one day it could make a difference!
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Some helpful Info
The following is taken from the RAF Flight Information Handbook which not everyone may have access to:
PRACTICE URGENCY CALLS - UK
Para 6 - RT Procedure - Practice Urgency Calls are initiated using the following procedure.
a. The pilot should transmit: "Practice PAN" 3 times, "This is <Callsign>" then break transmission, and listen out for the reply from the D & D controller.
b. The D 7 D controller will respond with either:
(1) "Aircraft Callsign this is London/Scottish Centre. Your position is.......continue Practice PAN" OR
(2) "Aircraft Callsign, this is London/Scottish Centre. Your position is.......negative Practice PAN, SAROPS ON/EMERGENCY ON"
c. If a negative reply is received, change frequency and wait at least 10 mins before checking if the restriction still applies. If permission is given the pilot should broadcast "Practice PAN" once and "This is Aircraft Callsign" (once), then as much of the emergency message as is relevant.
Navrad
My guess is that you were given a "non-standard" negative response probably, as has been said above, because D&D were busy with an incident working another agency or on 243MHz. At least they said to you to call back!
At the end of the day, Practice Urgency Calls are at the discretion of the controller so I'm not too sure why you feel put out on this occasion!
PRACTICE URGENCY CALLS - UK
Para 6 - RT Procedure - Practice Urgency Calls are initiated using the following procedure.
a. The pilot should transmit: "Practice PAN" 3 times, "This is <Callsign>" then break transmission, and listen out for the reply from the D & D controller.
b. The D 7 D controller will respond with either:
(1) "Aircraft Callsign this is London/Scottish Centre. Your position is.......continue Practice PAN" OR
(2) "Aircraft Callsign, this is London/Scottish Centre. Your position is.......negative Practice PAN, SAROPS ON/EMERGENCY ON"
c. If a negative reply is received, change frequency and wait at least 10 mins before checking if the restriction still applies. If permission is given the pilot should broadcast "Practice PAN" once and "This is Aircraft Callsign" (once), then as much of the emergency message as is relevant.
Navrad
My guess is that you were given a "non-standard" negative response probably, as has been said above, because D&D were busy with an incident working another agency or on 243MHz. At least they said to you to call back!
At the end of the day, Practice Urgency Calls are at the discretion of the controller so I'm not too sure why you feel put out on this occasion!
Last edited by Ops and Mops; 27th Jan 2005 at 10:06.
Can we please get rid of practice pans on 121.5?
I know this has been done to death but - really - they are nothing but a damn nuisance.
Usually somewhere about mid-France I find myself reaching to deselect Guard as Golf Charlie Foxtrot Bog Jumper drones into his turgid practice pan speal. As often as not followed by some foreign voice yelling "you're on Guard!" .
Some nice weekends its IMPOSSIBLE to operate a commercial flight in UK airspace AND monitor Guard. Contrary to various SOPS and requirements and recommendations.
Its pointless, it could be simulated, it could be on a slightly different frequency, it could only be allowed for an hour a day or something. Anything would be better than having the worlds most cluttered 121.5 freq.
I used to do loads of them as a PPL instructor and can see their use as they did in reality bring back not a few of my solo student navexs. Nevertheless...
Cheers
WWW
I know this has been done to death but - really - they are nothing but a damn nuisance.
Usually somewhere about mid-France I find myself reaching to deselect Guard as Golf Charlie Foxtrot Bog Jumper drones into his turgid practice pan speal. As often as not followed by some foreign voice yelling "you're on Guard!" .
Some nice weekends its IMPOSSIBLE to operate a commercial flight in UK airspace AND monitor Guard. Contrary to various SOPS and requirements and recommendations.
Its pointless, it could be simulated, it could be on a slightly different frequency, it could only be allowed for an hour a day or something. Anything would be better than having the worlds most cluttered 121.5 freq.
I used to do loads of them as a PPL instructor and can see their use as they did in reality bring back not a few of my solo student navexs. Nevertheless...
Cheers
WWW
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Hey WWW if you can get the funding and another VHF frequency I think that is the way the guys in D&D would like it to be.
The old addage of practice makes perfect springs to mind but, as a student, who would you rather replied to your practic pan call, the Instructor in the seat next to you or a guy trained to do the best for ALL the aviators in distress/lost/overdue. They manage to do a fine job with limited resources and a can do attitude.
The old addage of practice makes perfect springs to mind but, as a student, who would you rather replied to your practic pan call, the Instructor in the seat next to you or a guy trained to do the best for ALL the aviators in distress/lost/overdue. They manage to do a fine job with limited resources and a can do attitude.
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WWW I fully agree!!
I too call for a complete ban of practice PAN's in the UK. It's a sad reflection of modern times, but modern times I'm afraid they are!
I fully monitor 121.5 across the world, and I can truly say, the UK is the ONLY country where I find 121.5 being used by GA as part of training exercises.
Commercial traffic are supposed to monitor 121.5 these days, but within or near the UK this becomes all too often a task that gets the volume turned down because of the frequency beong used for non-emergency traffic.
In a busy IFR environment where the RT loading is busy, then it is purely unacceptable to have this chatter going on in your ears in addition. The result - many commercial pilots NOT monitoring 121.5 near/within UK airspace.
Sadly, time for a change!
Emergencies R Us I would appreciate a view from D&D........why do we persist with this when other countries no longer do??
Regards
30W
I too call for a complete ban of practice PAN's in the UK. It's a sad reflection of modern times, but modern times I'm afraid they are!
I fully monitor 121.5 across the world, and I can truly say, the UK is the ONLY country where I find 121.5 being used by GA as part of training exercises.
Commercial traffic are supposed to monitor 121.5 these days, but within or near the UK this becomes all too often a task that gets the volume turned down because of the frequency beong used for non-emergency traffic.
In a busy IFR environment where the RT loading is busy, then it is purely unacceptable to have this chatter going on in your ears in addition. The result - many commercial pilots NOT monitoring 121.5 near/within UK airspace.
Sadly, time for a change!
Emergencies R Us I would appreciate a view from D&D........why do we persist with this when other countries no longer do??
Regards
30W
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They manage to do a fine job with limited resources and a can do attitude.
As for funding, I am sure as the Practice PAN is a valuable training aid and in the interests of safety, the CAA Safety Regulation Group could fund a VHF PETF from the proceeds of their huge exam/licence fees!
I couldn't agree more! A VHF PETF would hopefully make for a quieter 121.5 that more people would actually monitor.
LXGB
LXGB
Last edited by LXGB; 27th Jan 2005 at 21:48.
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Guys I'm sorry but I'm not really in a position to get dragged into a conversation about the rights and the wrongs. However, do I think training is worthwhile? Definately! It's good for us as emergency controllers and it's good for the aircrew, mil and civil, so that they are familiar with their actions in an actual and know what D&D can offer.
As I said this morning and the offer still stands. Call, mail or visit. As for the positive comments from everyone, many thanks!
As I said this morning and the offer still stands. Call, mail or visit. As for the positive comments from everyone, many thanks!
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Well, that stirred the mud a bit.
I omitted to mention that I had with me an embryo pilot to whom I had been extolling the virtues of British ATC and D&D in particular. OOPS!
Seriously though, I have found that a lot of puddle jumper pilots are terrified of ATC and the idea of a call on 121.5 scares the pants off them, when it could literally be a life saver.
I appreciate that Long Haul jocks have to monitor guard but just as they have to share runways and airspace with tyros, why should sharing 121.5 be different? To use a different frequency to practice on would only be the equivalent of a classroom exercise.
Everyone has to learn and the more thorough the learning the safer for everyone.
I omitted to mention that I had with me an embryo pilot to whom I had been extolling the virtues of British ATC and D&D in particular. OOPS!
Seriously though, I have found that a lot of puddle jumper pilots are terrified of ATC and the idea of a call on 121.5 scares the pants off them, when it could literally be a life saver.
I appreciate that Long Haul jocks have to monitor guard but just as they have to share runways and airspace with tyros, why should sharing 121.5 be different? To use a different frequency to practice on would only be the equivalent of a classroom exercise.
Everyone has to learn and the more thorough the learning the safer for everyone.
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While we're talking about 121.5...
ATCO in small tower in SW England. We have a scanner receiver in the tower so we can keep an unofficial ear on traffic in adjacent airspace on quieter days. One of the scan channels set is 121.5 which I was taught (not that long ago) was the International Distress Frequency. All I seem to hear on it is (and forgive me if this is unrepresentative!) US military flights and French/Spanish sched flights calling each other 'On Guard' and often as not, in French or Spanish.
What is 'On Guard' and why is the distress frequency used like this? Must drive the D&D people mad!
Cheers,
DinD.
What is 'On Guard' and why is the distress frequency used like this? Must drive the D&D people mad!
Cheers,
DinD.
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Hi Duncan,
All big jets are equipped with a thing a bit like 'Battleships', which enables us to play a game based on the old habit of sword-fighting or fencing, which all of us learnt in our childhoods, when we were growing up in our Daddies' Castles!
Now, when we call 'En guard', we are simply setting up a game between aircraft! Great fun for all the family! How we laughed on the way to the Burns Unit!
Seriously though, I would hope that any private flyer, learning that 121.5 has become the de facto loss of comms frequency for public transport, would make the sensible decision to quit the habit of practice panning. It gets in the way, and is unnecessary.
All big jets are equipped with a thing a bit like 'Battleships', which enables us to play a game based on the old habit of sword-fighting or fencing, which all of us learnt in our childhoods, when we were growing up in our Daddies' Castles!
Now, when we call 'En guard', we are simply setting up a game between aircraft! Great fun for all the family! How we laughed on the way to the Burns Unit!
Seriously though, I would hope that any private flyer, learning that 121.5 has become the de facto loss of comms frequency for public transport, would make the sensible decision to quit the habit of practice panning. It gets in the way, and is unnecessary.
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Suppose I was asking for that! What is this 'Guard' though - is it a habit pilots have picked up from somewhere or is it an actual procedure? And why the distress frequency?
(Sorry to seem a bit dim if this is a well known pilot thing, but I ain't a pilot
)
D.
(Sorry to seem a bit dim if this is a well known pilot thing, but I ain't a pilot
)D.
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Agree 110% with WWW - practice pans have no place on 121.5. I fully appreciate their usefulness and thing they are a very good thing, but absolutely not on the "live" distress freq. Like WWW I often find myself having to deselect 121.5 for long periods (and then forgetting to reselect it later, the joys of old age 
) - it's an air safety hazard in my opinion.
) - it's an air safety hazard in my opinion.
Duncan, On guard means just that. They're saying that the other pilot talking is on guard (guard being another name for the distress frequencies) and they would like him to get off.
Kit D'Rection: Practise gets in the way does it? Then why pray does everyone have to practise their reaction to emergencies in the sim or otherwise? It's so that they react perfectly every time!
As others have said, including the man at the coal face, emergency practise is important for everyone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is only a step away from having a problem. Yes there should be a practise VHF emergency frequency to stop guard getting cluttered, but nothing will happen until enough pilots and only pilots complain about it. You can't ban it entirely because, I believe, it's a syllabus requirement (?).
Having spoken to the guys in D&D you'll find that all the airliner mates chatting to each other on guard and manging to forget which frequency that they're supposed to be on is annoying. Not the guys who actually want to practise their emergency reactions in order that they know what to do in a real one.
NavRad, one thing for you. Have you seen how far outside the promulgated cover for the 121.5 MHz system you are in Morecambe Bay? You might be surprised!
Kit D'Rection: Practise gets in the way does it? Then why pray does everyone have to practise their reaction to emergencies in the sim or otherwise? It's so that they react perfectly every time!
As others have said, including the man at the coal face, emergency practise is important for everyone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is only a step away from having a problem. Yes there should be a practise VHF emergency frequency to stop guard getting cluttered, but nothing will happen until enough pilots and only pilots complain about it. You can't ban it entirely because, I believe, it's a syllabus requirement (?).
Having spoken to the guys in D&D you'll find that all the airliner mates chatting to each other on guard and manging to forget which frequency that they're supposed to be on is annoying. Not the guys who actually want to practise their emergency reactions in order that they know what to do in a real one.
NavRad, one thing for you. Have you seen how far outside the promulgated cover for the 121.5 MHz system you are in Morecambe Bay? You might be surprised!