Manchester VFR transits
Guest
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Manchester VFR transits
I am planning a trip which will take me through the Manchester area in the next couple of weeks and I wonder if any Manchester ATCOs could advise me about VFR transit options other than the Low Level Route. Ideally I'd like to transit overhead the Liverpool CTR at 2500 or 3000ft, heading north-south. Other pilots I've talked to suggest this is option is not normally available. I've looked at the EGCC SIDs and STARs and the only IFR traffic I can see that might go through that airspace is 06L arrivals from Wallasey, but I understand you don't descend those below 3500 until they're in your RVA.
Can you advise me of the likelihood of getting a transit as described, say entering at Kirkby and leaving at Chester?
Can you advise me of the likelihood of getting a transit as described, say entering at Kirkby and leaving at Chester?
Guest
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What you need is a Liverpool ATCO!
You would probably have no trouble getting a VFR transit on the route you suggest but it would almost certainly be not above 1500 feet whilst in the Liverpool CTR (SFC-1500 feet). Use Liverpool Approach on 119.85 for entry clearance not any Manchester frequency.
If you really wanted to be higher you would probably be routed west of Wallasey or east of Manchester (Glossop).
Fly safely!
You would probably have no trouble getting a VFR transit on the route you suggest but it would almost certainly be not above 1500 feet whilst in the Liverpool CTR (SFC-1500 feet). Use Liverpool Approach on 119.85 for entry clearance not any Manchester frequency.
If you really wanted to be higher you would probably be routed west of Wallasey or east of Manchester (Glossop).
Fly safely!
Guest
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Thanks Cossack. Yes, I know the Liverpool CTR transit option is available, but frankly I'm not too impressed with the idea of all that flying over built up areas in a single at 1500ft QNH which is why I wondered whether your airspace above that might be available. It's Class D to 3500ft, so surely it must be available for VFRs?
I've also considered the other two options. Keeping clear of the Liverpool CTR to the east means ducking under the Class A at below 2000ft several miles offshore, and the Glossop option is unattractive because of high ground and potential conflicts with military low levels in a very narrow corridor.
I've also considered the other two options. Keeping clear of the Liverpool CTR to the east means ducking under the Class A at below 2000ft several miles offshore, and the Glossop option is unattractive because of high ground and potential conflicts with military low levels in a very narrow corridor.
Guest
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Yes the Manchester CTR is Class D and available to VFRs but there is no guarantee of getting through quickly. There are times of the day when it is just not practicable to get you through that's why the LLR was put there.
In practice, the LLR is the quickest option with no likelihood of being held because of Manchester traffic.
If Manchester is on the 24s, at 3500 feet transitting east of the airport you would fly through both downwind legs, 2 SID routes and final approach. On the 6s transitting west of the airport you would fly through both downwind legs, 3 SID routes and final approach.
VFR or not we still have a responsibility to keep you out of the way of IFRs without delaying them.
If I were you I'd use the LLR.
In practice, the LLR is the quickest option with no likelihood of being held because of Manchester traffic.
If Manchester is on the 24s, at 3500 feet transitting east of the airport you would fly through both downwind legs, 2 SID routes and final approach. On the 6s transitting west of the airport you would fly through both downwind legs, 3 SID routes and final approach.
VFR or not we still have a responsibility to keep you out of the way of IFRs without delaying them.
If I were you I'd use the LLR.
Guest
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Accept your point entirely about not delaying IFRs. I'd be proposing a transit at either 2500 or 3000 (not 3500), west of the Manchester CTR. Aren't the SIDs all in Class A at 4000 and above at that point? I wouldn't be flying through the RH downwind for 06 because I'm west of the CTR, and wouldn't the LH downwind and final approach be kept within the RVA? I'd be well to the west of that.
What are your busiest times of day?
What are your busiest times of day?
Guest
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You want to fly from Kirkby to Chester at 3000. You're in the Manchester CTA above the Liverpool CTR. To transit that airspace Liverpool would need to coordinate with Manchester West Sector. On its own, no problem.
When you fly through the Liverpool CTR, Liverpool now have the problem of integrating you into their traffic (less busy than Manchester admittedly) without Secondary radar. When you get to Chester you're very close to Hawarden also.
If you want to avoid overflying built up areas at 1500 feet, request join at Seaforth to fly down the Mersey and then out through Chester following the M53.
Or fly to the west of the Wirral below 2000 but talk to Liverpool.
When you fly through the Liverpool CTR, Liverpool now have the problem of integrating you into their traffic (less busy than Manchester admittedly) without Secondary radar. When you get to Chester you're very close to Hawarden also.
If you want to avoid overflying built up areas at 1500 feet, request join at Seaforth to fly down the Mersey and then out through Chester following the M53.
Or fly to the west of the Wirral below 2000 but talk to Liverpool.
Guest
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I'm an ex-EGGP ATCO and normally the guys & girls there will try and squeeze you through some how. I also used to do alot of flying in the area so I know that there is no use you even trying to talk your way through EGCC airspace, they're way to busy, all day. As for EGGP, again subject traffic, a good routeing above 1500' could be Seaforth - Hawarden. It would depend on how busy both 'pool and hawarden are but it's the only possible option I can see.
You can only ask anyway.
Happy Flying
FT
You can only ask anyway.
Happy Flying
FT
Guest
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Thanks guys. I can see this is a big problem for EGCC so I wouldn't want to push things, but it all seems a bit odd. If I'm flying through Manchester airspace (Man CTA, above Liverpool's delegated section up to 2500) why would that require Liverpool co-ordinating with Manchester West? And since I'm not in the Liverpool CTR or any of Liverpool's airspace, why would they have to integrate me into their traffic? And if I'm at 3000ft why would proximity to Hawarden be a problem? I believe 3000's above all their IAPs.
Re Liverpool options, OK, if I don't like 1500 over BUAs I have to accept going for a swim if the donkey dies. But an up-the-Mersey routing surely causes more probs for Liverpool (straight through their final approach/departure) and Hawarden (straight through the IAPs for 23) than a N-S through the Liverpool overhead at, say, 2400ft, in airspace which is empty because everyone else has been warned off it ;-)
Re Liverpool options, OK, if I don't like 1500 over BUAs I have to accept going for a swim if the donkey dies. But an up-the-Mersey routing surely causes more probs for Liverpool (straight through their final approach/departure) and Hawarden (straight through the IAPs for 23) than a N-S through the Liverpool overhead at, say, 2400ft, in airspace which is empty because everyone else has been warned off it ;-)
Guest
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NorthSouth,
A transit at 2,500' would require Liverpool to coordinate that transit with Manchester, Any higher would mean talking directly to Manchester or talking to Liverpool( in error) and them asking for the transit. Have you considered the aircraft climbing out of liverpool to 4 thousand feet on the liverpool SID's and the fact that nearly every IFR inbound is descended to 3,500', idented to liverpool and then given to them? There is still a responsibility to separate these aircraft from VFR traffic, as you may appreciate this is likely to cause many problems and therefore most transits are at 1,500' or through the LLR.
Hope this helps
NsR ( Have fun thats what it's all about)
A transit at 2,500' would require Liverpool to coordinate that transit with Manchester, Any higher would mean talking directly to Manchester or talking to Liverpool( in error) and them asking for the transit. Have you considered the aircraft climbing out of liverpool to 4 thousand feet on the liverpool SID's and the fact that nearly every IFR inbound is descended to 3,500', idented to liverpool and then given to them? There is still a responsibility to separate these aircraft from VFR traffic, as you may appreciate this is likely to cause many problems and therefore most transits are at 1,500' or through the LLR.
Hope this helps
NsR ( Have fun thats what it's all about)
Guest
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NorthSouth, from an EGGP ATCO:
Your easiest option is a transit VFR Kirby to Chester VRP's at 2500'. It will involve little if any co-ordination with Manch.
Subject to traffic you'll get a routing through the overhead or maybe east/west of the threshold depending on the runway in use.
We'll pass your details to Hawarden but as they are an ATZ only, provided you give them a wide enough berth you needn't worry about any conflictions with their traffic. Most of their inbounds and outbounds are co-ordinated with us anyway and there aren't that many. The approach controller will keep you advised and decide whether he feels you need to give them a call or not.
Don't bother with Manchester they're just too busy, we'll sort you out no problem, just give us a call on 119.85 with 5 minutes to run to Kirby. The controller will probably try and clear you not above 1500 but specifically ask for "not above 2500' VFR" and you should be alright. The controller will however be slagging you to high heaven, off air of course, but don't worry.......we slag off everybody amongst ourselves (especially ****jet!!!!!!!)
Good luck
PS To all prospective transits: Integrating VFR and IFR in the Liverpool CTZ is an art form. Don't call Manchester they're too busy, give us a call and 90% of the time you'll get what you've asked for. Just don't make your first call at the zone boundary and expect a friendly reply, give us at least 5 minutes notice and you'll be alright, be prepared for possible re-routes or orbits en-route.
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No, you can't have 09!
[This message has been edited by squibbler (edited 21 June 2001).]
Your easiest option is a transit VFR Kirby to Chester VRP's at 2500'. It will involve little if any co-ordination with Manch.
Subject to traffic you'll get a routing through the overhead or maybe east/west of the threshold depending on the runway in use.
We'll pass your details to Hawarden but as they are an ATZ only, provided you give them a wide enough berth you needn't worry about any conflictions with their traffic. Most of their inbounds and outbounds are co-ordinated with us anyway and there aren't that many. The approach controller will keep you advised and decide whether he feels you need to give them a call or not.
Don't bother with Manchester they're just too busy, we'll sort you out no problem, just give us a call on 119.85 with 5 minutes to run to Kirby. The controller will probably try and clear you not above 1500 but specifically ask for "not above 2500' VFR" and you should be alright. The controller will however be slagging you to high heaven, off air of course, but don't worry.......we slag off everybody amongst ourselves (especially ****jet!!!!!!!)
Good luck
PS To all prospective transits: Integrating VFR and IFR in the Liverpool CTZ is an art form. Don't call Manchester they're too busy, give us a call and 90% of the time you'll get what you've asked for. Just don't make your first call at the zone boundary and expect a friendly reply, give us at least 5 minutes notice and you'll be alright, be prepared for possible re-routes or orbits en-route.
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No, you can't have 09!
[This message has been edited by squibbler (edited 21 June 2001).]
Guest
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Squibbler:
What helpful chappies you Liverpool controllers are! Had a very nice off-list response from one of your colleagues too.
I'll be happy to give you something interesting to do
when I come down your way - probably on Monday 9 July. Look out for G-GT.
What helpful chappies you Liverpool controllers are! Had a very nice off-list response from one of your colleagues too.
I'll be happy to give you something interesting to do
when I come down your way - probably on Monday 9 July. Look out for G-GT.
Guest
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Hello cossack
I often fly out of Barton transitting Liverpool zone from Burtonwood to Wallasey, speaking with Liverpool, then fly up the river Dee through Hawaraden's overhead, whilst speaking with Hawarden, then across to Ashcroft Farm before returning north up the low level route.
My questions to you are these. Whilst travelling up the low level route, and on 119.4, and realising you guys are busy, are we as well just keeping a listening watch rather than bothering you? And, if we sqwark 7000, does that cause you or anybody else any problems?
Would it be easier if Liverpool approach 119.85 were responsible for looking after the low level route, as some of their departing VFR traffic leave the zone at Whitegate?
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A BIT EXTRA FOR MUM.
I often fly out of Barton transitting Liverpool zone from Burtonwood to Wallasey, speaking with Liverpool, then fly up the river Dee through Hawaraden's overhead, whilst speaking with Hawarden, then across to Ashcroft Farm before returning north up the low level route.
My questions to you are these. Whilst travelling up the low level route, and on 119.4, and realising you guys are busy, are we as well just keeping a listening watch rather than bothering you? And, if we sqwark 7000, does that cause you or anybody else any problems?
Would it be easier if Liverpool approach 119.85 were responsible for looking after the low level route, as some of their departing VFR traffic leave the zone at Whitegate?
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A BIT EXTRA FOR MUM.
Guest
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@ EGCC 4284 "Would it be easier if Liverpool approach 119.85 were responsible for looking after the low level route, as some of their departing VFR traffic leave the zone at Whitegate?"
As an ex EGGP ATCO I would vote "most definately not !" It was hard enough getting BMA DC9's onto the ILS while Blackpool direct Great Ormes Head transits gave their life story instead of calling London FIR. If everything in the LLR called, well .....
Also , one of the main purposes of the LLR is to allow transit through the area without the need for an ATC clearance / radio etc.
In 'Indian Territory' it's all about "see & be seen", as the regulators frequently tell us !
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Damn, I got old quick !
As an ex EGGP ATCO I would vote "most definately not !" It was hard enough getting BMA DC9's onto the ILS while Blackpool direct Great Ormes Head transits gave their life story instead of calling London FIR. If everything in the LLR called, well .....
Also , one of the main purposes of the LLR is to allow transit through the area without the need for an ATC clearance / radio etc.
In 'Indian Territory' it's all about "see & be seen", as the regulators frequently tell us !
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Damn, I got old quick !
Guest
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North/South, Hi
I have a dread of the LLC, everyone seems to fly down the middle, after a little chat with the local Pro pilots I now always transit through Eggp airspace, entering at Kirkby to Lima Papa Lima( Runcorn Bridge) and exit at Whitegates, the Liv ATC are spot on and hardly trouble you, the best thing however is that you are being watched all the way through and out, leave Man alone they really are V busy and despite what you think there are quite a lot of green bits in the area( keep out of the Safari park though). Have a good flight
My Regards
Peter R-B
I have a dread of the LLC, everyone seems to fly down the middle, after a little chat with the local Pro pilots I now always transit through Eggp airspace, entering at Kirkby to Lima Papa Lima( Runcorn Bridge) and exit at Whitegates, the Liv ATC are spot on and hardly trouble you, the best thing however is that you are being watched all the way through and out, leave Man alone they really are V busy and despite what you think there are quite a lot of green bits in the area( keep out of the Safari park though). Have a good flight
My Regards
Peter R-B
Guest
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As an aside to the original post, this sort of question seems to be raised reasonably regularly for the Manchester/Liverpool transit area.
It occurs to me that the majority of the answers given are emminently sensible but equally, are not marked on any charts anywhere or not listed in the doc's. Or if they are, it's too complicated as not to be obvious to the not so experienced eye.
Would it be too complicated/expensive for the chart makers to put all the available options on the appropriate chart, even if it was necessary to produce a new idiots guide chart just for this area.
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It wasn't me.
It occurs to me that the majority of the answers given are emminently sensible but equally, are not marked on any charts anywhere or not listed in the doc's. Or if they are, it's too complicated as not to be obvious to the not so experienced eye.
Would it be too complicated/expensive for the chart makers to put all the available options on the appropriate chart, even if it was necessary to produce a new idiots guide chart just for this area.
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It wasn't me.
Guest
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Cossack - far be it from me to tell you what to do in your own back yard, but a pilot who squawks, listens and doesnt talk is a pain in the butt.
It happens regularly in my neck of the woods, and although we dont have the constraints of the Manchester airspace, non talking squawkers who transit the area and final approach just add to the work load.
On Sunday I had two examples of this, and after going through the nause of giving traffic information and finally avoiding action to an aircraft established on final approach, the non talker called, stating that he'd been listening all the time.
Very poor airmanship (IMHO).
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It wasn't me.
It happens regularly in my neck of the woods, and although we dont have the constraints of the Manchester airspace, non talking squawkers who transit the area and final approach just add to the work load.
On Sunday I had two examples of this, and after going through the nause of giving traffic information and finally avoiding action to an aircraft established on final approach, the non talker called, stating that he'd been listening all the time.
Very poor airmanship (IMHO).
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It wasn't me.
Guest
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spoon,
The "Manchester Low Level Route" is [fairly] well promulgated. (Pooleys, The Airport Guide etc) so IF you follow the rules, [not above 1250' etc] then really all you need is a squawk. IF you are unsure or think that you're a bit "off" in your route, then listen out on 119.4 and when safe call Apc.
[Doing the "stats", we normally have 40-60 transits in summer. They are the ones who DO call. Heaven knows the number of none callers
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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chiglet
The "Manchester Low Level Route" is [fairly] well promulgated. (Pooleys, The Airport Guide etc) so IF you follow the rules, [not above 1250' etc] then really all you need is a squawk. IF you are unsure or think that you're a bit "off" in your route, then listen out on 119.4 and when safe call Apc.
[Doing the "stats", we normally have 40-60 transits in summer. They are the ones who DO call. Heaven knows the number of none callers
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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chiglet