Its time to Strike !!!!
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420 - good point....sorry!!!
Just having to deal with people like that..........anyway:
That is the issue - I hope that a good proportion follow the union stance if that fateful decision is made.
I know that over 90% at our unit will be striking.
Just having to deal with people like that..........anyway:
That is the issue - I hope that a good proportion follow the union stance if that fateful decision is made.
I know that over 90% at our unit will be striking.
Guest
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Just to echo some of the more sensible comments here. If anyone wishes to get personal and start name calling then they are free to start their own Bulletin Board and do it there.
Use your debating skills to counter opposing views instead of resorting to schoolyard banter. If you can't, then I'll delete any offending post in the future. Clear enough ??
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Use your debating skills to counter opposing views instead of resorting to schoolyard banter. If you can't, then I'll delete any offending post in the future. Clear enough ??
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Guest
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Dim-ling..................
I also know FBW and can assure you of his credentials and professionalism, UNLIKE YOURS!
So why don't you do everybody a favour and post somewhere else instead of lowering the standard of this BB down to your level.
GROW UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also know FBW and can assure you of his credentials and professionalism, UNLIKE YOURS!
So why don't you do everybody a favour and post somewhere else instead of lowering the standard of this BB down to your level.
GROW UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guest
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ApplyBrainCell!!!!
Thankyou for that. As you know FBW so well, would like you like to let me and the rest of the world know just what it is he does as a profession???
Also, I find it hilarious that we have seen so many new names registered here within the last few days!
All seems like FBW/FatherJack/yourself all know each other well and speak up for each other.
Funny that!
Anyway, if you could answer the questions I would be hugely appreciative.
Thankyou.
Thankyou for that. As you know FBW so well, would like you like to let me and the rest of the world know just what it is he does as a profession???
Also, I find it hilarious that we have seen so many new names registered here within the last few days!
All seems like FBW/FatherJack/yourself all know each other well and speak up for each other.
Funny that!
Anyway, if you could answer the questions I would be hugely appreciative.
Thankyou.
Guest
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I think we're losing the point of this very interesting thread. Like Radar says cut out the slagging as it only detracts from the arguement and makes us look unprofessional. Remember there are lots of people watching this thread who do not post (media, management, joe public, MI5 etc) so keep focussed on the REAL issue.
Anyway, back to the arguement....
Anyway, back to the arguement....
Guest
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TO WHOEVER !!!!
Please stop the slagging match, no more jibs at each other after my post or I'll request a clear out of this thread.
There is some very serious points to address, as we speak fuel is running out and most of us are in support of what its trying to achieve.
I don't think the general public will have as much support for us if we start striking but they do believe in what we have to say about conditions, staffing, nerc etc as projected by IPMS in the press.
The media also are regularly having a pop at NATS management for the "millenium dome II - NERC" fiasco.
Suggestions for how we can drive a better bargain or what sort of action would get the fastest results....PLEASE
Please stop the slagging match, no more jibs at each other after my post or I'll request a clear out of this thread.
There is some very serious points to address, as we speak fuel is running out and most of us are in support of what its trying to achieve.
I don't think the general public will have as much support for us if we start striking but they do believe in what we have to say about conditions, staffing, nerc etc as projected by IPMS in the press.
The media also are regularly having a pop at NATS management for the "millenium dome II - NERC" fiasco.
Suggestions for how we can drive a better bargain or what sort of action would get the fastest results....PLEASE
Guest
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Yes, please do stop the slanging match! After all, we are supposed to be on the same team. And besides, it makes those of us who genuinely work hard and try to be professional look stupid and ignorant, which I'm sure you agree is something that we can do without!!
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Any managers out there reading this must be laughing their socks off at the total lack of cohesion expressed in this thread.
As someone who was involved in a similar situation some years ago - and again today - may I make a suggestion.
Forget the strike, for the moment, start with a ballot thensometing small; e.g. an overtime ban; this to start at a pre-notified time if no satisfactory agreement reached.If the answer is "No" go for something bigger to start a week or a later . If this has no effect, then introduce a training ban, and if this has no effect THEN go for the strike.
The timetable, avoiding school holiday eriods like the plague - we are conciencious professionals - should be made known to management, and the public (full page ads. in the newspapers?) from the very beginning..
The gradual increase in pressure on management should present yourselves as the voice of reason and them as a bunch of merchant bankers.
But first you need solidarity so let's stop the slanging match
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Lon More,just an ATCO
As someone who was involved in a similar situation some years ago - and again today - may I make a suggestion.
Forget the strike, for the moment, start with a ballot thensometing small; e.g. an overtime ban; this to start at a pre-notified time if no satisfactory agreement reached.If the answer is "No" go for something bigger to start a week or a later . If this has no effect, then introduce a training ban, and if this has no effect THEN go for the strike.
The timetable, avoiding school holiday eriods like the plague - we are conciencious professionals - should be made known to management, and the public (full page ads. in the newspapers?) from the very beginning..
The gradual increase in pressure on management should present yourselves as the voice of reason and them as a bunch of merchant bankers.
But first you need solidarity so let's stop the slanging match
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Lon More,just an ATCO
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My four penneth (for what it is worth).
Public support does not matter. We have public support for NERC but in reality that support is limited to the (relative) few who read the broadsheets.
And f*ck avoiding school holidays. If we want to achieve something then ignore the press and what ever they think wether for or against. Strike nationwide for one day in the middle of a holiday season. Why not threaten it for Christmas Eve?
That would get their attention (NATS management and the government) and we probably wouldn't even have to go through with it. If we did...well a lot of people wouldn't see their families this Christmas and that should focus their minds. And those people would include aircrew and senior business people. Don't forget that Christmas flights are booked up months in advance.
I'm a bit sick of having the piss taken out of me by Nats management. Incidentally how many more of them are going to jump ship to the companies who are bidding for us?
Making a slight lie out of the "I will not personally benefit finacially out of this" claim they all made when they helped to sell the idea to the government.
Public support does not matter. We have public support for NERC but in reality that support is limited to the (relative) few who read the broadsheets.
And f*ck avoiding school holidays. If we want to achieve something then ignore the press and what ever they think wether for or against. Strike nationwide for one day in the middle of a holiday season. Why not threaten it for Christmas Eve?
That would get their attention (NATS management and the government) and we probably wouldn't even have to go through with it. If we did...well a lot of people wouldn't see their families this Christmas and that should focus their minds. And those people would include aircrew and senior business people. Don't forget that Christmas flights are booked up months in advance.
I'm a bit sick of having the piss taken out of me by Nats management. Incidentally how many more of them are going to jump ship to the companies who are bidding for us?
Making a slight lie out of the "I will not personally benefit finacially out of this" claim they all made when they helped to sell the idea to the government.
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PLEASE NOTE THIS IS THE SANE FATHER JACK WITH THE GAP IN HIS NAME (not between his ears)
I haven't been to this thread for a couple of days, and really haven't missed much apart from some dissappointing slagging.
Some points on striking:
What are we striking for?
If it's for money, absolutely forget it. I'm not saying we're not worth it, I am just sure that we wouldn't ever succeed. This government is very good at media manipulation, just look at the last few days. No comment for days, then all the guns out demonising these "illegitimate protesters holding the country to ransom in an undemocratic manner", "putting patients at risk", "threatening and intimidating drivers." Whatever your views on the protests, most people support the cause of lower fuel duties, but look at the change of media coverage over the last few days and the subsequent collapse of the protests.
Same scenario of ATCOs going on strike: The Sun etc. get a leaked copy of "typical ATCO wages" which happens to be that of top of scale LATCC ATCO 1, and we are similarly demonised. We try to point out the plight of T & D scale ATCOs propping up airports, but the damage has been done.
Then, on the days we do go to work, BBC and Sky News set up a camera at Porters Way and comment on the "poor ATCOs coming to work in their BMWs, AUDIs etc..." Do it yourself some day, and think about how it looks on the TV the day after we've done a walk out.
Again, I'm not saying that I have a problem with how much we are paid or how we spend it, just don't be naive about how these things are won or lost.
What are we striking for? Part 2
Training. I do believe that mgmt do not appreciate the efforts that we all put into training, and how strongly we feel that we are not being recognised for it.
This is a more worthy cause and in my view justifiable to all concerned. Just remember that we shouldn't penalise trainees, they are union members too. (I hope)
Two final points (`cos this is getting long and rambling)
1) Solidarity please boys and girls
2) Don't just tell your IPMS rep your feelings. Go and tell your boss, B.S. or R. McN. next time they visit the ops room. If IPMS reps in negotiations tell mgmt side that feelings are strong, it is wasted unless mgmt side hear it from their own sources also.
I haven't been to this thread for a couple of days, and really haven't missed much apart from some dissappointing slagging.
Some points on striking:
What are we striking for?
If it's for money, absolutely forget it. I'm not saying we're not worth it, I am just sure that we wouldn't ever succeed. This government is very good at media manipulation, just look at the last few days. No comment for days, then all the guns out demonising these "illegitimate protesters holding the country to ransom in an undemocratic manner", "putting patients at risk", "threatening and intimidating drivers." Whatever your views on the protests, most people support the cause of lower fuel duties, but look at the change of media coverage over the last few days and the subsequent collapse of the protests.
Same scenario of ATCOs going on strike: The Sun etc. get a leaked copy of "typical ATCO wages" which happens to be that of top of scale LATCC ATCO 1, and we are similarly demonised. We try to point out the plight of T & D scale ATCOs propping up airports, but the damage has been done.
Then, on the days we do go to work, BBC and Sky News set up a camera at Porters Way and comment on the "poor ATCOs coming to work in their BMWs, AUDIs etc..." Do it yourself some day, and think about how it looks on the TV the day after we've done a walk out.
Again, I'm not saying that I have a problem with how much we are paid or how we spend it, just don't be naive about how these things are won or lost.
What are we striking for? Part 2
Training. I do believe that mgmt do not appreciate the efforts that we all put into training, and how strongly we feel that we are not being recognised for it.
This is a more worthy cause and in my view justifiable to all concerned. Just remember that we shouldn't penalise trainees, they are union members too. (I hope)
Two final points (`cos this is getting long and rambling)
1) Solidarity please boys and girls
2) Don't just tell your IPMS rep your feelings. Go and tell your boss, B.S. or R. McN. next time they visit the ops room. If IPMS reps in negotiations tell mgmt side that feelings are strong, it is wasted unless mgmt side hear it from their own sources also.
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Father J.....
We hail you oh wise one, there was actually some quite good points you made there.
When action is taken, it has to be for a myriad of reasons, and that includes pay. I've heard of cases in Airports Dept where the senior ATCO on late/night duties have been valid T&D's !! The Average IPMS payrise has been 4.5%, the average public sector payrise has been 3.75%, the average private sector payrise was 5.65% !! and where do we fit in ??? Exactly !!
But your right, into the bargain has to come OJTI recognition, there is a lot of us in the company who do a lot of "goodwill" duties etc
One last thing, if we do strike, ATCO 2's, leave your Audi TT's at home !!! ATCO 1's, you can still bring your Toyota corolla's....
We hail you oh wise one, there was actually some quite good points you made there.
When action is taken, it has to be for a myriad of reasons, and that includes pay. I've heard of cases in Airports Dept where the senior ATCO on late/night duties have been valid T&D's !! The Average IPMS payrise has been 4.5%, the average public sector payrise has been 3.75%, the average private sector payrise was 5.65% !! and where do we fit in ??? Exactly !!
But your right, into the bargain has to come OJTI recognition, there is a lot of us in the company who do a lot of "goodwill" duties etc
One last thing, if we do strike, ATCO 2's, leave your Audi TT's at home !!! ATCO 1's, you can still bring your Toyota corolla's....
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NATS have offered a max of 2.25% for the OJTI claim. This really can only be seen as an insult to the people who come into work and find themselves training day after day. The next pay meeting has been cancelled as a result. Nats need the OJTIs more in the coming few months for NERC than ever before, yet seem hellbent on causing further dissatisfaction amongst the staff.Come on IPMS ,let's have the ballot and have a significant rejection of this offer and a strong membership COUNTRYWIDE. This employer and any future one now has to realise that ATCOs have had enough of being s**t on.
Back to the original thread -- TIME TO STRIKE!!
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The 2.25% on offer is not the FINAL offer on OJTI. The pay meeting scheduled for Tuesday HAS NOT been cancelled. Management have stated that at Tuesday's meeting, they will table an increased formal offer on OJTI as part of the 2000 NATS central pay offer to ALL staff. The negotiations processes are not yet exhausted. These are the facts.
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Just passing on the details from the IPMS e-mail:-
"The 17th meeting in the 2000 pay round took place today to discuss ATCO OJTI pay.
We made it clear to NATS once again that we are seeking substantial additional rewards for carrying out OJTI and associated training tasks.
NATS has indicated that any additional reward would have to be linked to improvements in the number of training hours achieved. In some cases they are seeking substantial increases.
NATS has offered an annual allowance worth a maximum of 2.25% of basic salary. This followed a series of other unsatisfactory offers.
The IPMS negotiators have indicated to NATS that this is still totally unacceptable. It falls short of our ambitions and we will recommend that the ATCOs Branch Executive rejects the offer.
A pay meeting was scheduled for the 19th September. We have decided that there is little point in attending until the OJTI issue is settled."
"The 17th meeting in the 2000 pay round took place today to discuss ATCO OJTI pay.
We made it clear to NATS once again that we are seeking substantial additional rewards for carrying out OJTI and associated training tasks.
NATS has indicated that any additional reward would have to be linked to improvements in the number of training hours achieved. In some cases they are seeking substantial increases.
NATS has offered an annual allowance worth a maximum of 2.25% of basic salary. This followed a series of other unsatisfactory offers.
The IPMS negotiators have indicated to NATS that this is still totally unacceptable. It falls short of our ambitions and we will recommend that the ATCOs Branch Executive rejects the offer.
A pay meeting was scheduled for the 19th September. We have decided that there is little point in attending until the OJTI issue is settled."
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Well I've been valid for 18 months on the T&D scale and I've been the only controller in the tower on a night shift. There have been other controllers around, but they are normally asleep. So I make decisions without reference to anybody else....... Me, a lowly T&D ATCO making decisions *laughs*. Ha, whatever next?? Adding tea making duties to the list of accolades?? *lol*
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Father Jack....................
What a breath of fresh air to read your practical and common sense approach to the problem.
Contrast that with 420/250 (and others)and it is quite clear we have a problem. That problem being that we will never get taken seriously if the above mentioned ever get into the REAL debating arena.
Given their crude and badly written posts most of us just sigh and move on, however any management reading these posts are instantly aware of what a load of rubbish is written here and are able to respond accordingly.
FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED!!
What a breath of fresh air to read your practical and common sense approach to the problem.
Contrast that with 420/250 (and others)and it is quite clear we have a problem. That problem being that we will never get taken seriously if the above mentioned ever get into the REAL debating arena.
Given their crude and badly written posts most of us just sigh and move on, however any management reading these posts are instantly aware of what a load of rubbish is written here and are able to respond accordingly.
FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED!!