Airmisses - ATCOs to blame..
Guest
Posts: n/a
Airmisses - ATCOs to blame..
For the second time in a week I've read a press report of an ATCO being officially blamed for an airmiss. The first incident was at Manchester, the second at Heathrow.
Just to say - especially to anyone who leads a charmed life - "There, but for the Grace of God...".
It's a strange thing about aviation - I include pilots here - that you can plod on through most of your career doing your utmost to be professional and safe and then WALLOP you have an incident... you get the blame... a few get a mention in despatches.. If you are any sort of person it rocks you to the absolute core and causes many sleepless nights full of wondering "How the bloody hell did that happen?"
To the guys involved at EGCC and EGLL in these recent episodes - my very sincere sympathy. I know what you've been through....
Just to say - especially to anyone who leads a charmed life - "There, but for the Grace of God...".
It's a strange thing about aviation - I include pilots here - that you can plod on through most of your career doing your utmost to be professional and safe and then WALLOP you have an incident... you get the blame... a few get a mention in despatches.. If you are any sort of person it rocks you to the absolute core and causes many sleepless nights full of wondering "How the bloody hell did that happen?"
To the guys involved at EGCC and EGLL in these recent episodes - my very sincere sympathy. I know what you've been through....
Guest
Posts: n/a
Heathrow Director - as a pilot, how I agree with your comments!
Are we saying that professionals never make mistakes? Just what do people expect?
No mention is made of the constant pressure and congestion with respect to these incidents.
It just seems too easy to blame it on the people involved.
------------------
Are we saying that professionals never make mistakes? Just what do people expect?
No mention is made of the constant pressure and congestion with respect to these incidents.
It just seems too easy to blame it on the people involved.
------------------
Guest
Posts: n/a
As somebody of just over 6 months valid on a (usually) quiet radar sector it brings home just how close the line can be between "yeah, that'll work" and "ooh, this could be a bit close". As I was once told about something else, but still relevant, a good reputation takes years to achieve but a second to lose. You won't hear about the thousands of tight gaps that worked - just the one that didn't. As Heathrow Director says, "there but by the Grace of God, etc"
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've been driving listening to the radio all afternoon featuring the latest 'seconds from diaster' tale. Does anyone detect a difference in the tone of the press release? Do we still live in a blame free culture? Is this the future if so I dont want it! NATS can have my licence and my twenty five years experience.
Guest
Posts: n/a
LL Dir..
Yes I agree wholeheartedly. The real "culprits" or "villains" in this piece however are the media.
Yeah, you feel like s**t, and yes you feel like a leper when the investigations are ongoing (been there, seen it, done it), but to be fair AAIB and CAA ATSSD do their very best to investigate WHAT happened and WHY it happened, WITHOUT apportioning blame. They are after causes and how to rectify any problems without finger pointing.
The media on the other hand have another agenda, of which we are all too well aware in the aviation industry.
As a slight aside the military also have a "different" way of looking at things. I used to feel very sorry for my military colleagues when their "trappers" came round. Maybe things have changed nowadays?
Heartfelt sympathies to all involved at LL and CC.
Rgds BEX
Yes I agree wholeheartedly. The real "culprits" or "villains" in this piece however are the media.
Yeah, you feel like s**t, and yes you feel like a leper when the investigations are ongoing (been there, seen it, done it), but to be fair AAIB and CAA ATSSD do their very best to investigate WHAT happened and WHY it happened, WITHOUT apportioning blame. They are after causes and how to rectify any problems without finger pointing.
The media on the other hand have another agenda, of which we are all too well aware in the aviation industry.
As a slight aside the military also have a "different" way of looking at things. I used to feel very sorry for my military colleagues when their "trappers" came round. Maybe things have changed nowadays?
Heartfelt sympathies to all involved at LL and CC.
Rgds BEX
Guest
Posts: n/a
I haven't seen the actual report, but I bet it makes no mention of the fact that the 747 was landing on the departing runway because he wanted a short taxi to T4 without having to cross an active runway. The question of commercial pressure versus safety rears its head again. No mention of the number of times the world's favourite airlines tries to get to land on the runway nearest to the terminal which suits them, and how many times we put ourselves out and use that professional judgement which is being pilloried in the Press to help them.
Having said that, I hope as an OJTI we should be able to spot when the plan has gone awry and recover it before it gets this close. But we are all human (although sometimes I wonder!). Sympathies to those concerned.
------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
Having said that, I hope as an OJTI we should be able to spot when the plan has gone awry and recover it before it gets this close. But we are all human (although sometimes I wonder!). Sympathies to those concerned.
------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
Guest
Posts: n/a
eye,
http://www.aaib.detr.gov.uk/formal/gbnly/gbnly.htm
Read para 1.1.3, 09R was offered by ATC, not asked for by the crew.
And I hope we continue to offer the most suitable runway when conditions allow us to.
WF.
http://www.aaib.detr.gov.uk/formal/gbnly/gbnly.htm
Read para 1.1.3, 09R was offered by ATC, not asked for by the crew.
And I hope we continue to offer the most suitable runway when conditions allow us to.
WF.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I was rather concerned to read in the media today (can't remember which exactly) that someone had declined to name the ATCO involved. Obviously somebody somewhere was intent on a "name and shame" campaign and full marks to the powers that be for protecting the identities of those unlucky enough to find themselves in this situation.
Guest
Posts: n/a
As has been said, we're all human.
On the whole, media reporting of the incident has been reasonably accurate in line with the AIB report.
As the guy was monitoring a trainee at the time, it brings home the responsibility of OJTI duties.
It made me think, cos today I deliberately let a trainee dig a big hole for herself, partly to see how she would cope, but also to prove a point about something we had discussed a number of times before about the appropriate method for resolving the conflict. The result was that, had I not stepped in, there would have been paperwork flying to the moon and back.
My type of scenario is all part of the big learning curve, and unless we let trainees experience it live, they wont be properly prepared for when they're on their own.
After the type of incident in question, which was undoubtedly very serious, I can forsee a large number of OJTIs pulling the reigns in far earlier than is operationally desirable.
I just hope that the person in question has the confidence to return to OJT duties, and is given the support to do so, and that the trainee is given the same support.
------------------
It wasn't me.
On the whole, media reporting of the incident has been reasonably accurate in line with the AIB report.
As the guy was monitoring a trainee at the time, it brings home the responsibility of OJTI duties.
It made me think, cos today I deliberately let a trainee dig a big hole for herself, partly to see how she would cope, but also to prove a point about something we had discussed a number of times before about the appropriate method for resolving the conflict. The result was that, had I not stepped in, there would have been paperwork flying to the moon and back.
My type of scenario is all part of the big learning curve, and unless we let trainees experience it live, they wont be properly prepared for when they're on their own.
After the type of incident in question, which was undoubtedly very serious, I can forsee a large number of OJTIs pulling the reigns in far earlier than is operationally desirable.
I just hope that the person in question has the confidence to return to OJT duties, and is given the support to do so, and that the trainee is given the same support.
------------------
It wasn't me.
Guest
Posts: n/a
There is another thread on this in 'Rumours & News', and 'JPJ' (whom I suspect to be a journalist) says "I have made this point before, but it bears repetition.
The Press are there, they have a job to do, and they will do it. They work to very tight schedules, and sometimes the boy or girl writing about you, professional pilot, has only a few minutes to get a grip on the story, write and file.
Instead of carping (and yes, it is a pain to see elementary cock-ups) why doesn't the profession organise a programme to inform he journos? Brief them. Invite them to the sim, or the Jumpseat. Fix them a tech tour of your base. Have a regular programme of ATC visits.
That way, the industry has a chance of creating a core of knowledge that will help the journo to write the story, and help the industry to have its case put accurately.
It is better to have them inside the tent...
I think you know the rest. "
Now call me an old cynic, but........
The Press are there, they have a job to do, and they will do it. They work to very tight schedules, and sometimes the boy or girl writing about you, professional pilot, has only a few minutes to get a grip on the story, write and file.
Instead of carping (and yes, it is a pain to see elementary cock-ups) why doesn't the profession organise a programme to inform he journos? Brief them. Invite them to the sim, or the Jumpseat. Fix them a tech tour of your base. Have a regular programme of ATC visits.
That way, the industry has a chance of creating a core of knowledge that will help the journo to write the story, and help the industry to have its case put accurately.
It is better to have them inside the tent...
I think you know the rest. "
Now call me an old cynic, but........
Guest
Posts: n/a
Spoonbill makes an interesting point about OJTI. How far do we let a trainee go before stepping-in? In the military (the only system I can comment on), we train our instructors to be proactive throughout. This may look good on paper as there are rarely any screw-ups. The only problem is that, once on their own, the newly validated controller has never had to fight themselvf out of a hole. Consequently, when they find themselves in trouble, they do not necessarily know how to attack the issue.
Fly Safely
PS Didn't we bin the term 'Airmiss' a couple of years ago?????
[This message has been edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO (edited 18 June 2001).]
Fly Safely
PS Didn't we bin the term 'Airmiss' a couple of years ago?????
[This message has been edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO (edited 18 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Whipping Boy's SATCO
I disagree with your comments. As an experienced mil ATCO, we too allow trainees to dig - the skill is stopping them getting too deep, or knowing when to start filling the hole in yourself. Any good screen will try to elicit the correct course of action from a trainee without telling them what to do, and letting them get themselves into and out of situations is necessary during training - you just have to make sure that it is done safely.
As a Local Examining Officer, I would never let anybody go solo unless I was sure that they could safely do the job - I'm sure this holds true for all LEOs in the military.
----------
Bye bye, time is getting short
I disagree with your comments. As an experienced mil ATCO, we too allow trainees to dig - the skill is stopping them getting too deep, or knowing when to start filling the hole in yourself. Any good screen will try to elicit the correct course of action from a trainee without telling them what to do, and letting them get themselves into and out of situations is necessary during training - you just have to make sure that it is done safely.
As a Local Examining Officer, I would never let anybody go solo unless I was sure that they could safely do the job - I'm sure this holds true for all LEOs in the military.
----------
Bye bye, time is getting short
