Manchester ATC clearance
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 139
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From: uk
Manchester ATC clearance
Apologies if this has already been discussed but I havn't found any reference so far.
On my last couple of departures from MAN I have been asked to confirm which SID I have been given on rwy lineup.
I cannot see any reason for this as ATC clearance has already been received and read back at an earlier time. All this does is cause a distraction in the cockpit at a critical time(entering the runway) apart from which our pre takeoff checks include a review of the briefing that will pick up any doubts about SID etc. If ATC cannot trust pilots to remember the SID between startup and takeoff perhaps they should go back to the old system of issuing clearances whilst taxiing out?
Or perhaps there is a perfectly innocent explaination?
On my last couple of departures from MAN I have been asked to confirm which SID I have been given on rwy lineup.
I cannot see any reason for this as ATC clearance has already been received and read back at an earlier time. All this does is cause a distraction in the cockpit at a critical time(entering the runway) apart from which our pre takeoff checks include a review of the briefing that will pick up any doubts about SID etc. If ATC cannot trust pilots to remember the SID between startup and takeoff perhaps they should go back to the old system of issuing clearances whilst taxiing out?
Or perhaps there is a perfectly innocent explaination?
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 413
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From: EU
This is unfortunately indicative of our current band-aid approach to solving human-factors problems. It applies only to southbound aircraft off RWY24L/R.
As you will know, on RWY24 the smaller/quieter aircraft on southbound routes will fly a LISTO sid, whilst the larger jets go on a HONILEY. On RWY06 all southbounds go on a LISTO - hence on occasion a crew will get it wrong on 24 and fly the wrong SID. This is hardly surprising, as you need to tune in the HON VOR in order to fly the LISTO SID.
Given that one route turns left immediately on departure and the other goes (pretty much) straight ahead, you can see the potential for problems when we're busy with departures. Hence the so-called "confidence check " on departure. It applies only to these two routes.
I'd suggest that if there's a flight deck workload issue, you include your SID (when on one of these routes) in your initial call to tower, either on 119.4 for 24L or 118.62 for 24R, thereby avoiding an extra call.
As you will know, on RWY24 the smaller/quieter aircraft on southbound routes will fly a LISTO sid, whilst the larger jets go on a HONILEY. On RWY06 all southbounds go on a LISTO - hence on occasion a crew will get it wrong on 24 and fly the wrong SID. This is hardly surprising, as you need to tune in the HON VOR in order to fly the LISTO SID.
Given that one route turns left immediately on departure and the other goes (pretty much) straight ahead, you can see the potential for problems when we're busy with departures. Hence the so-called "confidence check " on departure. It applies only to these two routes.
I'd suggest that if there's a flight deck workload issue, you include your SID (when on one of these routes) in your initial call to tower, either on 119.4 for 24L or 118.62 for 24R, thereby avoiding an extra call.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 208
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From: cheshire
Waldo
The confidence check was introduced because pilots of several airlines, even though they had been given and read back a Honiley Dep, decided once airborne to turn left on Listo Dep.
Fun and games if you have slow prop flying a Listo followed 1min later by a jet who is supposed to be flying a Honiley Dep and turns left on a Listo.
This check is a pain in the a** for us a well,you only get asked once, we have to ask every Listo and Honiley dEP
The confidence check was introduced because pilots of several airlines, even though they had been given and read back a Honiley Dep, decided once airborne to turn left on Listo Dep.
Fun and games if you have slow prop flying a Listo followed 1min later by a jet who is supposed to be flying a Honiley Dep and turns left on a Listo.
This check is a pain in the a** for us a well,you only get asked once, we have to ask every Listo and Honiley dEP
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 139
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From: uk
Thanks for the quick reply.
I can see you obviously have some problems on this departure, however I must point out that I have flown all over the world during the past 24 years and I have never been asked to confirm TWICE that I have the correct clearance. If we all start questioning every instuction/clearance given by ATC and vice versa there will be chaos.
If Manch ATC has a problem with some aircraft going the wrong way I feel it is for them to approach the airlines to complain rather than apply an un necessary patch to all.
I can see you obviously have some problems on this departure, however I must point out that I have flown all over the world during the past 24 years and I have never been asked to confirm TWICE that I have the correct clearance. If we all start questioning every instuction/clearance given by ATC and vice versa there will be chaos.
If Manch ATC has a problem with some aircraft going the wrong way I feel it is for them to approach the airlines to complain rather than apply an un necessary patch to all.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 208
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From: cheshire
Waldo
you seem to miss the point
Manch atc does not have a problem wih the sids, its certain pilots
that seem to.
When your departure separations are based on aicraft flying the sid you expect you dont expect it to be comprimised by aircraft going the wrong way
The check is there to safeguard a known safety issue.
By the way if you brief a departure then check it again before take off how does somedody turn left instead of right 1 min after departure
you seem to miss the point
Manch atc does not have a problem wih the sids, its certain pilots
that seem to.
When your departure separations are based on aicraft flying the sid you expect you dont expect it to be comprimised by aircraft going the wrong way
The check is there to safeguard a known safety issue.
By the way if you brief a departure then check it again before take off how does somedody turn left instead of right 1 min after departure
