Heavy Callsign = >250 KIAS when below 10,000?
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Heavy Callsign = >250 KIAS when below 10,000?
I've got a quick question about the well-known rule that more than 250 Knots below 10,000 feet (AGL or MSL? I'd guess MSL.) are a no-no. But I do know that there are exceptions to this rule.
So which ones are these? There are heavy airplanes (much fuel, heavy cargo -> near MTOW) that have a minimum flaps up speed of more than 250 Knots Indicated Airspeed. Does a pilot of such a heavy bird have to request a >250-clearance or is this automatically handled by appending 'heavy' to the flight number? Can a pilot of a lighter airplane request a higher speed as well if the airspace is clear in front of him?
Thanx controllers /knowers!
LH419 (FS2000 Pro Pilot)
So which ones are these? There are heavy airplanes (much fuel, heavy cargo -> near MTOW) that have a minimum flaps up speed of more than 250 Knots Indicated Airspeed. Does a pilot of such a heavy bird have to request a >250-clearance or is this automatically handled by appending 'heavy' to the flight number? Can a pilot of a lighter airplane request a higher speed as well if the airspace is clear in front of him?
Thanx controllers /knowers!
LH419 (FS2000 Pro Pilot)
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In the London TMA unless you are given 'No ATC Speed Restriction' you must be less than 250kts unless above 10000ft. This is nearly always given on first contact unless you have a large turn to make on a SID or are following slow traffic, e.g. A340, FK27 B747 Classic.
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You are not expected to climb with flaps extended...on a fully loaded B744 out of LHR min flap-up speed is around 263 kts and a margin of at least 20 kts is added to that. If you advise ATC of the minimum speed you require you will not be held at 250kts. On descent, approaching normal landing weights, 250kts is not a problem. What can be a problem is the UK max holding speed at lower levels of 220kts...although again requests for higher speeds are normally always given.
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Gents and ladies,
The ICAO (and generally accepted rule over the planet) is 250kts or less at or below 10000ft. Usually the the speed limitation does not apply to military acft (as they seem to be a law unto their own) or unless it is required by acft concerned due to configuration, etc. So yes wherever you are flying it is is best to request permission and say due to operational requirment. The same goes for holding speeds.
The ICAO (and generally accepted rule over the planet) is 250kts or less at or below 10000ft. Usually the the speed limitation does not apply to military acft (as they seem to be a law unto their own) or unless it is required by acft concerned due to configuration, etc. So yes wherever you are flying it is is best to request permission and say due to operational requirment. The same goes for holding speeds.
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Thanks a lot already. That makes sense. How about other airspace than the Heathrow terminal area? Do most of the controllers on other major airports automatically clear you saying "no ATC speed restriction", even if you're flying some narrowbody airplane?
Regards
LH419
Regards
LH419
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This one again. "No ATC speed restriction" means that ATC have no requirement for a particular speed to be flown to achieve/ maintain separation or to help sequencing, it does NOT absolve pilots from the rules of the air, therefore 250kts in appropriate airspace is still applicable. In and out of LHR you are surrounded by class A airspace and (I think) the SIDs specify 250 kts so the controller is a) at liberty to approve +250kts below FL100 and b), if he does, he is lifting an "ATC speed restriction" hence the use of said phrase. If you need greater than 250 to remain clean then it will probably be given, but always make your requirements known. A heavy aircraft is not entitled to go any faster than the rest just because it's bigger. Does it even need to in the descent?
As an aside, to those who fly into & out of the Belfast TMA which is not blessed with anything better than class E airspace (with a little bit of class D thrown in), I expect you to be doing 250kts or less by 22 DME from the BEL AT THE LATEST to comply with the 10,000 rule, even if told "no ATC speed restriction"- see line 1.
As an aside, to those who fly into & out of the Belfast TMA which is not blessed with anything better than class E airspace (with a little bit of class D thrown in), I expect you to be doing 250kts or less by 22 DME from the BEL AT THE LATEST to comply with the 10,000 rule, even if told "no ATC speed restriction"- see line 1.
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I recall when BY first got the 763, we had an Opnot out saying they would not be able to comply with the 250kt restriction on departure.
Never heard anything about it since, and none have ever complained if the speed restriction has been left on.
It used to be almost standard phraseology oop here in t'north to say no speed restriction, but it's a different kettle of fish now with all those damn little barbie jets...get a 757 following a barbie, both on Honiley deps, and left to their own devices, the 75 catches the other up well before Birmingham
Never heard anything about it since, and none have ever complained if the speed restriction has been left on.
It used to be almost standard phraseology oop here in t'north to say no speed restriction, but it's a different kettle of fish now with all those damn little barbie jets...get a 757 following a barbie, both on Honiley deps, and left to their own devices, the 75 catches the other up well before Birmingham
Guest
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As far as I know there are even some classes of airspace where no speedlimit is prescribed. In this cases a pilot can fly any speed he likes. But he better let the controller know about that. If I correctly remember my training I think that a pilot my fly faster than 250 below 100 if it is necesarry for the safe operation of the aircraft no matter what aircraft and what class of airspace.
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Guest
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For clarification, the UK rules (MATS Pt 1) are:
Rules of the Air require aircraft flying below FLIGHT LEVEL 100 (not AGL or AMSL) to observe, with exceptions, a speed limit of 25kts IAS.
<blah, blah>
The 250kt speed limit does NOT apply to:
a) flights in Class A and B
b) IFR flights in Class C
c) flights in Class C & D when authorised by an ATC unit
d) test flights in accordance with specified conditions
e) aircraft taking part in flying displays when authorised by the Authority
f) aircraft subject to written permission granted by the Authority
g) aircraft not subject to the ANO (ie military)
There is some more stuff but the bones are above.
Just for thought from the postings previously - the phrase "no ATC speed restriction" has been mentioned a few times - is this the same or different to "high speed approved" ? To my mind, the latter approves 250kts+, the former does not. As I said, just a thought...
The Lizard
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Just do the dance and become a lizard...
Rules of the Air require aircraft flying below FLIGHT LEVEL 100 (not AGL or AMSL) to observe, with exceptions, a speed limit of 25kts IAS.
<blah, blah>
The 250kt speed limit does NOT apply to:
a) flights in Class A and B
b) IFR flights in Class C
c) flights in Class C & D when authorised by an ATC unit
d) test flights in accordance with specified conditions
e) aircraft taking part in flying displays when authorised by the Authority
f) aircraft subject to written permission granted by the Authority
g) aircraft not subject to the ANO (ie military)
There is some more stuff but the bones are above.
Just for thought from the postings previously - the phrase "no ATC speed restriction" has been mentioned a few times - is this the same or different to "high speed approved" ? To my mind, the latter approves 250kts+, the former does not. As I said, just a thought...
The Lizard
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Just do the dance and become a lizard...
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Lizard
I really think you should spend more time doing your amendments to the MATS Part 1. The 25Kt speed limit went out ages ago when those Wright Brothers gave up aviation
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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
I really think you should spend more time doing your amendments to the MATS Part 1. The 25Kt speed limit went out ages ago when those Wright Brothers gave up aviation
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Rules of the Air require aircraft flying below FLIGHT LEVEL 100 (not AGL or AMSL) to observe, with exceptions, a speed limit of 25kts IAS.</font>
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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
