Channel Islands CTR - why class A?

[foghorn]

I've posted this here rather than to questions as I think I may be answered better by you ATC folks.. .. .Why is the Channel Islands CTR class A airspace? Why not (say) class D?. .. .I can't think of a justification on traffic grounds when compared to (say) Luton and Stansted - two busy airports fairly close to each other with class D CTRs.. .. .Is it an attempt to put off light aircraft from over the sea by making them go SVFR?. .. .cheers!. .foggy.

[niknak]

To keep the French out?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .As the Channel Islands are essentially an independant state, (although they've adopted the UK A.N.O and take CAA guidance on aviation matters), I suppose that they felt they had the right to impose whatever class of airspace they chose, when the idea was first discussed. . .As developments in airspace procedures have progressed over the years, I wouldn't be at all suprised if no one had raised the question at the appropriate legislative level.. .Pure speculation on my behalf, but reasonably plausible.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

One could ask the same question about the London CTR.

[1261]

Never mind the Channel Islands; why do we in the UK use different airspace from everywhere else in the world?. .. .ICAO standard terminal airspace is Class B, CTR is Class C, most ICAO states have low-level airways which are Class E. Why on earth are we the odd man out?? Are there any other states in the world which use Class D?. . . . <small>[ 29 March 2002, 14:42: Message edited by: 1261 ]</small>

[bookworm]

Interesting question, 1261.. .. .The fundamental premise of class E airspace (and in particular, of having mostly class E airspace at lower levels as in Germany or the USA) is that IFR and VFR traffic can avoid each other visually in VMC with sufficient reliability to fly safely.. .. .If you don't believe they can, you end up with positive control and a system of aispace with much class A/B/C and the rest class G as in the UK. Class E is pointless. . .. .The choice between A and B/C is presumably made on the basis that some airspace is sufficiently busy that even entertaining a request from a VFR aircraft wanting to cross the airpsace is sufficiently disruptive as to be inconvenient or dangerous. More likely in the UK, the vast tracts of class A we have are allocated on a systematic or historical basis, rather than a case by case evaulation of the impact of allowing VFR aircraft access to the airspace.

[VCR]

Well said Bookworm. .I'd take it further and give all airfields with published Instrument Approaches a Class E CTR.

[1261]

I agree that (logically) anywhere with ATC and a published instrument approach should have at least Class E protection.. .. .But why our historical refusal to use Classes B (at lower levels) and C (at all!) when they are obviously the international norm?

[Oliver James]

I would say that it is largly to do with the fact that because Class A obliges standard separation, it effectively removes the need to be giving traffic info. to the big boys on the littluns which could pass as close as they like, VFR. We don't need that workload on what are already overly busy frequencies and nobody in a big public transport aircraft needs to be distracted from the most dangerous part of their flight spending time looking out for traffic. . .. .With the wx in this country being 'difficult', shall we say, making the London CTR class A keeps life much simpler for all of us. Can you imagine the danger of a VFR trying to cross 'through' the ILS with constant 3 miles spacing at 160kts? It would be asking for trouble. At Gatwick where the standard spacing is more usually 6 miles handling VFRs is not as difficult. Were it ever to get another runway and go to 3 miles as a standard spacing I think they would need to look at class A here too. . .. .As far as Jersey is concerned, I haven't got clue! . .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Point 4

[bookworm]

1261 said:. .. ."ICAO standard terminal airspace is Class B, CTR is Class C". .. .I don't believe there is any ICAO standard for what airspace is used where. It was a major achievement for ICAO to get the labels agreed according to services provided, and I don't think there was any intention to standardise the services themselves.. .. .There are very wide differences.. .. .UK uses A and D for CTRs, A and D for terminal areas (with some IAPs in class G).. .. .USA uses B/C/D/E for CTRs, B/C/D/E for terminal areas (also with parts of some IAPs in class G). . .. .Belgium uses C/D for CTRs, B/C for terminal areas.. .. .Germany uses D for CTRs, C/D for terminal areas. Also some F.. .. .France uses D/E for CTRs, A/D/E for terminal areas.. .. .The Netherlands uses A/C for CTRs, A/C/E for terminal areas.. .. .The list goes on.... . . . <small>[ 30 March 2002, 00:23: Message edited by: bookworm ]</small>

[alphaalpha]

There are also diffferences in the way some countries operate the same class of airspace. In the USA an a/c may penetrate a class D CTR without a positive clearance, providing two way communication has been established between the a/c and the controller (eg this is sufficient: a/c: 'Naples Tower, Cessna-12345.' Tower: 'Cessna-345 stand by.'). In the UK, of course, a positive clearance is needed to enter. Why is there this difference? What is the ICAO standard? It seems to be to be a potential source of danger for a US pilot flying in the UK for the first time.

[1261]

Thanks, Bookworm. I've never visited anywhere else that uses Class D, and that was the root of my point. Most places (i.e. overseas) that I've visited seem to think that we (UK) are something of an anomaly - I apologize if I'm posting someone's opinion rather than fact!. .. .Are you sure about the Dutch? I was under the impression that all Dutch CTRs were Class C for civil or E for military. I'm pretty sure that Schiphol is Class C CTR. In fact my post was partly based on comments by a tower supervisor there whom I bumped into recently.. .. .Do you think that the EU will try to impose a standard across Europe (perhaps as JAR gathers pace)?. .. .Do you know of anywhere that has instrument approaches but no controlled airspace outside the UK?. . . . <small>[ 30 March 2002, 08:11: Message edited by: 1261 ]</small>

[Scott Voigt]

I guess I don't see the problem with class E??? We use it here in the US and there isn't a problem with it other than freer access to the air.

I fly both IFR and VFR and choose to fly VFR when the weather is nice. The need for class A around major metro areas just isn't there. Class B offers the type of protection that you need and allows the flexibility to be more usefull when you have the time to offer that service...

regards

[skippyscage]

it's just always been the case of being class A

they acually have their own A.N.O (based on the UK ANO)

I would hazard a guess that it's because there are three airports with IFR Commercial traffic within a relativley small area

Jersey controls the Zone handing over to Guernsey who control the areas closer to Guernsey and Alderney

It's works ok, and SVFR traffic is always welcome and acommodated (even without a transponder if asked in advance nicely)

The limits are tighter for SVFR to take place than in the UK, but do you really want to fly when there is over half cloud cover at 500' or below and less than 3000m vis?

being based there for more than 8 years never really had any problems - you just get used to filing flight plans for everthing, and from a UK perpective you would have to anyway... as you are flying over an International Boundary and more than 50 miles from the coast

the only aircraft you are likley to see at light a/c level are the trislanders

and ATC are always top notch

[Crapaud]

CI CTR

Watch this space - The rumours are that the CI CTR may become Class C.........................

[skippyscage]

that's very interesting Crapaud

thank your guys for letting me in the other day when I had a double radio failure and had to resort to the handheld

from an ex Donkey

[DB_TWR]

Here in Sweden it's really simple, both CTR/TMA are class C, and it works perfectly. I feel, (like many of my coworkers) that the added protection class C gives to IFR traffic, particulary in adverse weather over class D or E are significant.

Class D/E was used several years ago, and class E airspace was found to bee lacking i many aspects.

[GroundBound]

Well, I renewed my PPL in Jersey, recently, and I thought it was great! They do a good job there with a wide mix of types (slow and fast) and they're very kind to GA

I now fly from a class B Zone in a different country, and am forced to go in/out at 900ft AGL over the top of a large city with no hope of a landing area in case of engine failure.

Once outside, its indian country. Three days ago, an F16 passed 500ft below me left to right at 250kts (4 seconds visual warning), saw an Alphajet 2 nm away, and when returing to the zone, but still ouside the airspace, was passed by an outbound opposite direction, 100 yards right and 300ft below - despite being warned and looking for it, I only spotted it about 3 seconds before it disappeared from view under the right cowling. If I had descended earlier to the zone entry height .....

All I got from this Class B zone was an ATC circuit joining clearance and extended downwind leg.

Jersey was better! Give me good ATC with radar every time!