Swanwick's gone tits up!!!!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
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Can't comment on why the Restart at Swanwick took SO LONG (0100 this am I'm told).. .. .It's worth pointing out the FACT that Swanwick still relies on NAS and cannot function without it. So we have a "new" ATC centre that cost £XXX million, opened late, has all sorts of faults, and yet still needs what is basically a souped up IBM9020D of late 1960's vinatge to function.(or at least software from the 9020) . .. .Worse still NERC is very vunerable to NAS "hiccups", a regular occurance at what was LATCC, with largely manual system that was very tollerant of errors.. .. .I believe I'm right in saying that had yesterdays (brief) failure occured at LATCC, there would have been very little impact. Progress? . .. .To my dear old colleague Traffic... yep, I've had enough. "I told you so" doesn't make me feel any better. I will continue to go in, do the best job I can given the available tools, but contribute anything else, NO. Can't be bothered anymore.... No thanks from management, no admissions that they were wrong, no constructive dialogue on how to put things right.. .. .It's a nice day today. Think I might go for a sail.... .. .BEX
Beady Eye
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Yes unfortunately LACC still requires NAS, like the other NATS units. It was asked for right at the beginning of the project, NOT to use NAS but the team were lumbered with it.. .FlightPlanFixer:. .See my previous post for the answer to your question. Basically, following a NAS FLOP, LACC enters SWIMM (Swanwick In Manual Mode) and the NAS-SFS link will not be recovered until traffic levels are low enough (very low!) to allow the sector staff to match the electronics with the manual operation. Generally that won't be until late at night, in this case 1am sounds right as there will have been some delayed flights to try and sort out before restoring the link.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Carnage Matey,. .. .One of the problems those of us at airports and indeed at least one en-route centre had was actually trying to get some positive information as to the problem. Obviously the main priority was trying to get a system up and running and achieve the maximum flow rate possible. However, the information we got was somewhat patchy and was not helped by the fact that the situation was changing by the minute. I know it does not help you sitting on the ramp with an aircraft full of passengers for hours and not being able to tell them anything. Believe me though, a lot of people put in a lot of effort behind the scenes to try and get everybody away with the minimum of delay.
Beady Eye
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Flight Plan Fixer:. .Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough. Once NAS is up and running the LACC NAS-SFS link can be restored when the Watch Manager chooses. However as soon as you do then the OLDI ACT's get sent and they get the LAM's, but LACC is still manual and will still pass manual estimates. Also other NAS units will get ACT's. But the main confusion will arise within LACC as ATCO's will be presented with some aircraft whuch have all the electronic indications and some which don't. Busy sectors will take a long time to recover electronically whilst they are also running a manual operation. Hence the need to wait for VERY low traffic levels as you can move a lot more traffic manually rather than impose draconian flow measures to get the traffic levels low enough to recover electronically, then let everything get airborne.. .I am not neccesarily 'loyal' to the NERC system, just trying to explain how things work. Believe me the ATC Systems Development team had pointed all these things out to management long before 'O' date. Apart from loss of node a NAS FLOP is one of the worst fallbacks to experience. However we are assured that NAS is becoming much more reliable! Yeah right!!
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I would like to leap to the defence of NAS....we have been friends for quite some years now, and she/it/he serves well if you treat her/it/him right.. .. .The problem came from an...interesting...input as I understand, regading the Irish gap (as someone said to me today, "we keep making the hole smaller") but NAS was back up and running within a reasonable time (I know more than 30 seconds outage is unreasonable, but you know what i mean) - it was the SFS re-synch that caused the problem. .. .Leave NAS alone!!!!!
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Mr. Chips;. .. .I would have to disagree with you. You can NOT proceed forward with modernization until you get RID of NAS. The system is old and clunky. You can't do anything even close to modern with it. It is time to dump Jovial and BAL and move on.. .. .regards
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Startover and Take 3 Call 5.... .. .Thanks for your detailed and accurate reasoning re: the NASSFS link being down for nine hours. After asking around at work, and spending some time doing the LACC Method of Operations CBT exercises, I can now see how complex and labour intensive catching the workstations up to the dataflow when the link is restored is.. .. .That, coupled with the usual lack of air traffic staff at LACC that day, made the link restoration possible but not advisable from a safety and delay point of view. See what you mean now, guys! Glad the aborts didn't happen at 8 in the morning.... .. .Have to agree with Scott; either NAS has to be replaced, or relocated to Swanwick and the link subsumed into the rest of the LACC token rings.. .. .Will promise to post with my brain in future and give my ar$e a rest!
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True.... . .. .But, NAS, old and relatively reliable is way, way past the limits of what it was designed to do. Although we're all fairly comfortable with NAS, it's limitations and it's quirks, it's not possible to develop it any further. Hence the need for something completely new.. .. .What we have got, however, is the Swanwick system. For all it's pluses and minuses, it still relies on good ol' NAS. It's bit like having a nice new Jaguar with all its modern creature comforts, but with the ignition system from a Model T Ford.. .. .Until we step away from NAS, this sort of failure will happen again. It's impact in the pre NERC days was limited and relatively easy to rectify quickly. Post NERC, lose NAS even for a short time and you say goodbye to NERC electronics and hello to manual (slow) ops until either the traffic is reduced by draconian flow (STOP ALL), or until the early hours of the morning when there is little traffic anyway. Only then is it safe to bring NERC back.. .. .Until the next time..... .. .Rgds BEX
Join Date: Feb 2002
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completely agree with you bex, management WERE told i believe along time ago that relying on NAS was a BIG mistake-its only a matter of time before some poor sod at lacc has a nasty -hope its not too nasty is all i can say.... .so we have:. .crap screens . .crap r/t. .NAS being crap-. .bargain for £600m really wasn't it
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Well, not EVERYTHING is Crap.... .. .NAS ain't perfect, but normally does do the job it was designed to do, and a lot more besides. I have little criticism of it in that respect, and a whole lot of admiration for those that maintain it. Well done Tels! . .. .However it's expecting an awful lot of system designed in the 1960's to be 100% reliable today, which is why I (and many others) wonder why Swanwick was designed in such way as to rely on it.. .. .The RT at NERC is being FIXED. New microphones, headsets, and (possibly) less digital/analogue interfaces.. .. .The NERC screens? I agree, A FUNDEMENTAL PROBLEM. One that HSE have highlighted. Reasons in writing required, with a Timescale for fixes. Hopefully HSE will not back down.. .. .Anyway the point is clear. Swanwick relies on NAS. It shouldn't have to, but that's the way it is. I personally think this is/was a mistake. Whilst Swanwick continues to rely on NAS the events of Wednesday last WILL happen again, and again, and again....... . .. .BEX
