FL110 at Talga on UA25 Southbound
Thread Starter
FL110 at Talga on UA25 Southbound
Being Bristol based I happily trundle down UA25 from WAL several times a day. Nearly every time we are asked to be at or below FL110 by TALGA by London 133.6
This usually involves starting our descent at NITON and then after our spectacular dive we have about 50 track miles to spare before we would like to descend again. This costs something akin to 150kgs of AVTUR per flight. With 7 services a day Go alone are wasting over a tonne of fuel a day. Small beer in the big picture I know.
However, Cardiff 125.85 one evening told me that the FL110 TALGA requirement was "pretty old hat, not really needed these days".
Last night we got a clearance from just after IOM to TALGA and I got the impression that the coordination was with London Mil.
Can someone please throw some light on the TALGA requirement and verify that it is still necessary. In addition I am keen to know the ramifications involved in severely cutting the Wallasey corner when coming out of Belfast like I did last night. If it is merely London Mil confirming that they have nothing operating over Wales then during the non-daylight hours I would be looking for that clearance much more keenly.
No criticisms or moans implied. I am merely trying to improve my own ATC awareness.
Cheers,
WWW
This usually involves starting our descent at NITON and then after our spectacular dive we have about 50 track miles to spare before we would like to descend again. This costs something akin to 150kgs of AVTUR per flight. With 7 services a day Go alone are wasting over a tonne of fuel a day. Small beer in the big picture I know.
However, Cardiff 125.85 one evening told me that the FL110 TALGA requirement was "pretty old hat, not really needed these days".
Last night we got a clearance from just after IOM to TALGA and I got the impression that the coordination was with London Mil.
Can someone please throw some light on the TALGA requirement and verify that it is still necessary. In addition I am keen to know the ramifications involved in severely cutting the Wallasey corner when coming out of Belfast like I did last night. If it is merely London Mil confirming that they have nothing operating over Wales then during the non-daylight hours I would be looking for that clearance much more keenly.
No criticisms or moans implied. I am merely trying to improve my own ATC awareness.
Cheers,
WWW
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WWW
Sounds like LATCC working to the standing Letter of Agreement that they'll have with Cardiff. The Airway Between RADNO & EXMOR Below FL110 is ceded to Cardiff. The 110 by TALGA is just to give a standard transfer point between LATCC and Cardiff, or if Cardiff have nothing to affect then they will co-ordinate that with Bristol and you'll get the same release. I would have said that if Bristol are busy then you'll get that as keeping you higher would be too difficult - imagine if everyone asked for it <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> However later in the evening when things are quiet then you might get it.
As for the Mil Co-ordination yes, that will have been done with LATCC (Mil) as they have large chunks of Wales above FL245 for training. There tends to be very little in there at night, and you may even get it during the day. It never hurts to ask.
CM
Sounds like LATCC working to the standing Letter of Agreement that they'll have with Cardiff. The Airway Between RADNO & EXMOR Below FL110 is ceded to Cardiff. The 110 by TALGA is just to give a standard transfer point between LATCC and Cardiff, or if Cardiff have nothing to affect then they will co-ordinate that with Bristol and you'll get the same release. I would have said that if Bristol are busy then you'll get that as keeping you higher would be too difficult - imagine if everyone asked for it <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> However later in the evening when things are quiet then you might get it.
As for the Mil Co-ordination yes, that will have been done with LATCC (Mil) as they have large chunks of Wales above FL245 for training. There tends to be very little in there at night, and you may even get it during the day. It never hurts to ask.
CM
WWW
The TALGA 110 requirement performs two functions, both related to LATCC sector workload. As CM indicated, it provides a standard release point for traffic to Cardiff, thus reducing the coordination requirement for individual flights. It also reduces inter-sector coordination at LATCC as the Brecon (133.6) controller, who is working the traffic north of TALGA on A25, has no knowledge of traffic at 120 or above in the BCN area which is the resonsibility of the Bristol (134.75) controller.
Often, of course, these controllers have time to coordinate a non-standard clearance as they currently sit next to each other at LATCC, and indeed sometimes the two sectors are combined. However, at NERC, there is no guarantee that the two controllers will be adjacent, thus making the coordination process more complex.
As regards the direct routing across North Wales, as soon as the military "go to bed" we are granted "off-route" status above FL245. This permits such short-cuts to be made. The hours vary on an ad-hoc basis, but are generally from early evening until 0700 local, and usually all weekend. Feel free to ask if you're flying at those sort of times.
NN
The TALGA 110 requirement performs two functions, both related to LATCC sector workload. As CM indicated, it provides a standard release point for traffic to Cardiff, thus reducing the coordination requirement for individual flights. It also reduces inter-sector coordination at LATCC as the Brecon (133.6) controller, who is working the traffic north of TALGA on A25, has no knowledge of traffic at 120 or above in the BCN area which is the resonsibility of the Bristol (134.75) controller.
Often, of course, these controllers have time to coordinate a non-standard clearance as they currently sit next to each other at LATCC, and indeed sometimes the two sectors are combined. However, at NERC, there is no guarantee that the two controllers will be adjacent, thus making the coordination process more complex.
As regards the direct routing across North Wales, as soon as the military "go to bed" we are granted "off-route" status above FL245. This permits such short-cuts to be made. The hours vary on an ad-hoc basis, but are generally from early evening until 0700 local, and usually all weekend. Feel free to ask if you're flying at those sort of times.
NN
Thread Starter
Huge thanks. Am composing further theories.
Your great Gen is being fed into the base pilots and thanks for an excellent service in this part of the world (praise the day I left the London TMA!)
WWW
Your great Gen is being fed into the base pilots and thanks for an excellent service in this part of the world (praise the day I left the London TMA!)
WWW
