A Question for any Scottish controllers who work 124.82...
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A Question for any Scottish controllers who work 124.82...
Having recently read another thread about complaints from London controllers about pilots squawking ident on initial call, I wondered is it a help or a hindrance if we automatically do this on initial call on departure from GLA or EDI? No one has ever seemed displeased when anyone has done it and it seems to cut down on radio calls. Thanks
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Some radar controllers will be required to identify all aircraft on first contact, others won't.
Larger airfields (with appropriate ATM equipment/certification) are allowed to use their tower radars to identify departures; the radar controller can then "deem" that aircraft calling him are identified unless there has been co-ordination to the contrary. All that's usually required is a level (mode C) check, hence its inclusion in the initial call to radar.
Although the tower controllers at GLA and EDI (I can't speak for PIK) are allowed to identify traffic using their tower radars, because their systems are not linked to the national RADNET system radar controllers at Scottish (in most cases) still have to identify departing traffic. Hence the use of "squawk ident".
Just to further complicate matters - I'd wait until being asked to ident: the controller may have just asked someone else to do it, in which case he'll have wasted a bit of R/T time when he asks you both to do it again!
Hope that's of some use!
Larger airfields (with appropriate ATM equipment/certification) are allowed to use their tower radars to identify departures; the radar controller can then "deem" that aircraft calling him are identified unless there has been co-ordination to the contrary. All that's usually required is a level (mode C) check, hence its inclusion in the initial call to radar.
Although the tower controllers at GLA and EDI (I can't speak for PIK) are allowed to identify traffic using their tower radars, because their systems are not linked to the national RADNET system radar controllers at Scottish (in most cases) still have to identify departing traffic. Hence the use of "squawk ident".
Just to further complicate matters - I'd wait until being asked to ident: the controller may have just asked someone else to do it, in which case he'll have wasted a bit of R/T time when he asks you both to do it again!
Hope that's of some use!
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MATS pt.1 says that ATCOs can only use the ident feature as a method of identification when using SSR 'when it has been requested' by the ATCO. See CAP493, Section 1 para 4.1 sub-para c).
I even read the Scottish MATS pt.2 as saying that we can only satisfactorily accomplish identification, validation and correlation of code callsign if we transmit the instruction to 'Squawk Ident' and then the symbol appears around the a/c position symbol.
Therefore, I think that you should only squawk ident when requested. I know that there are quite a number of crews who call up and state that they are 'Squawking Ident' when climbing out of PF or PH. This seems to be a peculiarity of ScTMA deps and not something that I've encountered elsewhere. I don't think that it really cuts down on radio calls at all and I, for one, would rather that you pressed the button only on my explicit instruction!! :-)
Any other opinions?
Regards
TSA
I even read the Scottish MATS pt.2 as saying that we can only satisfactorily accomplish identification, validation and correlation of code callsign if we transmit the instruction to 'Squawk Ident' and then the symbol appears around the a/c position symbol.
Therefore, I think that you should only squawk ident when requested. I know that there are quite a number of crews who call up and state that they are 'Squawking Ident' when climbing out of PF or PH. This seems to be a peculiarity of ScTMA deps and not something that I've encountered elsewhere. I don't think that it really cuts down on radio calls at all and I, for one, would rather that you pressed the button only on my explicit instruction!! :-)
Any other opinions?
Regards
TSA
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It is fairly implicit that the ident button should only be pressed at the request of the controller. As for saving an RT call, it doesn't really - in most cases the controllers first call will be 'Squark xxxx ident, no ATC speed restriction' so even if you have already idented, you will have to acknowledge the cancelled speed restriction.
So please don't flash until we ask you to
So please don't flash until we ask you to
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At one time an IDENT was needed to convert the SSR ident to the aircraft callsign on the controller's radar display. I don't know whether this is still the case anywhere in the UK but I recall that the almost automatic sqawk IDENT once airborne in the Scottish area was, at one time, a habit so that the controller could see the callsign.
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Ok then, follow up question.
Scottish controllers always say 'Blah Airways, Climb alt 6000, Sqwalk 5432 ident'.
Request...
Could you say 'Blah Airways, Climb alt 6000', Sqwalk ident'.
Its much easier for us, coz SSR codes (as I understand it) have to be read back, and the fact that you tell me a code panics me every time that I didn't set it right in the first place. Whilst we are doing this whilst the flaps are coming up/checklists out - Its a critical flight phase so the workload being kept to a min is a good thing.
Cheers!
Scottish controllers always say 'Blah Airways, Climb alt 6000, Sqwalk 5432 ident'.
Request...
Could you say 'Blah Airways, Climb alt 6000', Sqwalk ident'.
Its much easier for us, coz SSR codes (as I understand it) have to be read back, and the fact that you tell me a code panics me every time that I didn't set it right in the first place. Whilst we are doing this whilst the flaps are coming up/checklists out - Its a critical flight phase so the workload being kept to a min is a good thing.
Cheers!
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Cough
If we say squawk ident and you have the wrong code selected we get the wrong information displayed on the "scope".From the ATC point of view it is better to say squawk xxxx ident in case you pilot guys and gals have set the wrong code ( unlikely I know
)
On a slightly differnt tack , today I was working the 123.77 Sector
BEL _ IOM FL250- and three out of four Easyjets checked in by saying EZYxxx squawking xxxx ident climbing 90. As mentioned on an other thread please do not press the ident until we say so thank you
I was going to say something over the r/t but the lady flying on the third sounded so sweet so I bottled out
.However I have now had a bottle of wine and I am ready to take on the world ( not!)
Rgds
AyrTC
If we say squawk ident and you have the wrong code selected we get the wrong information displayed on the "scope".From the ATC point of view it is better to say squawk xxxx ident in case you pilot guys and gals have set the wrong code ( unlikely I know
)On a slightly differnt tack , today I was working the 123.77 Sector
BEL _ IOM FL250- and three out of four Easyjets checked in by saying EZYxxx squawking xxxx ident climbing 90. As mentioned on an other thread please do not press the ident until we say so thank you
I was going to say something over the r/t but the lady flying on the third sounded so sweet so I bottled out
.However I have now had a bottle of wine and I am ready to take on the world ( not!)Rgds
AyrTC
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Ayr - Why different from LATCC and others that we visit?
If we sqwalk the wrong code, then it may take a mo for you to sort it, but I imagine in many cases (subject I guess to equip) it would be sorted by the twr...
Seriously, it is a lot less workload on us, for just a little more (occasionally) from you.
If we sqwalk the wrong code, then it may take a mo for you to sort it, but I imagine in many cases (subject I guess to equip) it would be sorted by the twr...
Seriously, it is a lot less workload on us, for just a little more (occasionally) from you.
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If the departure has been transfered directly from the tower the code may not have been verified, (not all towers have SSR monitors).On certain ocassions SSR at an airfield may be out of service.
Our manual at Scottish still insists that we must ensure that the correct data block is assigned to the correct squawk allocation.
It has happened in the past that squawk allocation have been transposed and it has caused all sort of fun and games.
I believe there have been some moves afoot to try and change operating procs,however the system we use is over 25years old so I think a change is unlikely.
Perhaps things will change when we move into The New Scottish Centre.
Rgds
AyrTC
Our manual at Scottish still insists that we must ensure that the correct data block is assigned to the correct squawk allocation.
It has happened in the past that squawk allocation have been transposed and it has caused all sort of fun and games.
I believe there have been some moves afoot to try and change operating procs,however the system we use is over 25years old so I think a change is unlikely.
Perhaps things will change when we move into The New Scottish
Centre.Rgds
AyrTC
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As AyrTC says, we do it because we are told to do it. I'd be more than happy to omit the numbers. If you are on the wrong code it is pretty obvious as the displayed callsign will be wrong.
I think it harks back to the days of manual input of Mode A codes into the Scottish Systems Radars. Well, we still have crap radar displays but at least these days they are linked up to the great God that is the NAS computer.
Perhaps you could get your ops guys to take it up with our ops guys and drag us kicking and screaming into the twenty first century.
I think it harks back to the days of manual input of Mode A codes into the Scottish Systems Radars. Well, we still have crap radar displays but at least these days they are linked up to the great God that is the NAS computer.
Perhaps you could get your ops guys to take it up with our ops guys and drag us kicking and screaming into the twenty first century.
