Scottish Control
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Scottish Control
Hello all!!
Can anyome shine a bright light on the following:
Coming in to EDI from the southeast (Tweed 1D I think) the controllers often offer you a direct to center fix with Radar Advisory OR Radar Information only. Can anyone tell me what these two actually mean and what the difference is.
BTW. I know the routing takes you out of controlled airspace.
ThanX.
[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: VAT ]
Can anyome shine a bright light on the following:
Coming in to EDI from the southeast (Tweed 1D I think) the controllers often offer you a direct to center fix with Radar Advisory OR Radar Information only. Can anyone tell me what these two actually mean and what the difference is.
BTW. I know the routing takes you out of controlled airspace.
ThanX.
[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: VAT ]
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I find it a bit worrying that you are obviously flying IFR in UK CAS without knowing the basics about radar services!! In a nutshell:
Radar Control Service:
Only available in Controlled Airspace. You are provided with a minimum of 3 or 5 miles lateral separation between you and traffic at the same level or you are provided with 1000 ft vertical separation. You MUST comply with ATC instructions unless the safety of the aircraft would be compromised by so doing. In this case you must inform ATC.
Radar Advisory Service:
Available outside CAS. You will be provided with the same separation against known traffic, and 3000ft vertically or 5 miles horizontally against unknown traffic. Usually only available above MSA, and you must inform the controller if you do not accept their vectors to avoid traffic. In this case YOU become responsible for the separation.
Radar Information Service:
Available outside CAS. You are provided with information only about the relative position of conflicting traffic and it is up to you to avoid it. Not all traffic may be called to you due to limitations of radar performance, controller workload or traffic density. You are responsible for terrain clearance.
In the case you cite, I would imagine the choice of whether you were given RIS or RAS will be a combination of controller workload and radar performance. In addition, the provision of a RIS will allow you to continue on a more direct track than would be possible if you had to be vectored 5 miles round all unknown conflicting traffic.
This is all from memory, so apologies if the details are lacking in some cases.
Radar Control Service:
Only available in Controlled Airspace. You are provided with a minimum of 3 or 5 miles lateral separation between you and traffic at the same level or you are provided with 1000 ft vertical separation. You MUST comply with ATC instructions unless the safety of the aircraft would be compromised by so doing. In this case you must inform ATC.
Radar Advisory Service:
Available outside CAS. You will be provided with the same separation against known traffic, and 3000ft vertically or 5 miles horizontally against unknown traffic. Usually only available above MSA, and you must inform the controller if you do not accept their vectors to avoid traffic. In this case YOU become responsible for the separation.
Radar Information Service:
Available outside CAS. You are provided with information only about the relative position of conflicting traffic and it is up to you to avoid it. Not all traffic may be called to you due to limitations of radar performance, controller workload or traffic density. You are responsible for terrain clearance.
In the case you cite, I would imagine the choice of whether you were given RIS or RAS will be a combination of controller workload and radar performance. In addition, the provision of a RIS will allow you to continue on a more direct track than would be possible if you had to be vectored 5 miles round all unknown conflicting traffic.
This is all from memory, so apologies if the details are lacking in some cases.
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macduff: Well, you're probably right, but I would have thought that minor points like who's responsible for keeping them and the other aircraft apart might just be something they might want to know!
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There must be a good reason for Scottish not offering RAS in class G; it can't possibly just be a cover-your-arse paperwork exercise!
My advice if you wish to route direct (outside CAS) is: take the RIS - if you are passed traffic info and you can't see it (IMC or whatever other reason) tell the controller and request avoiding action. No-one who has read the MATS lately will refuse a temporary upgrade in service.
Failing that, as soon as you get to 42.5d from EDI ask to transfer to 121.2 - you'll (almost always) get a RAS!
My advice if you wish to route direct (outside CAS) is: take the RIS - if you are passed traffic info and you can't see it (IMC or whatever other reason) tell the controller and request avoiding action. No-one who has read the MATS lately will refuse a temporary upgrade in service.
Failing that, as soon as you get to 42.5d from EDI ask to transfer to 121.2 - you'll (almost always) get a RAS!
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NLACG
ScACC Management have decreed that RIS is the maximum service that can be given in class G airspace. This happened because of several incidents in the FIR over a number of years when aircraft were given a RAS. These incidents generally happened between civil and military aircraft and occured because of the unpredictability of the manoeuvres that the military aircraft would make.
I would certainly be more than surprised if VAT was offered a direct route with anything more than a RIS.
ScACC Management have decreed that RIS is the maximum service that can be given in class G airspace. This happened because of several incidents in the FIR over a number of years when aircraft were given a RAS. These incidents generally happened between civil and military aircraft and occured because of the unpredictability of the manoeuvres that the military aircraft would make.
I would certainly be more than surprised if VAT was offered a direct route with anything more than a RIS.
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Hiya all,
This is VAT but can't get my mate's computer to change name
Anyway, I am indeed a FO with an airline and not ashamed to admit that I am not fully up to speed with the differences in ATC. Sorry 4 that.
I do however thank you all for the replies and think I learned again(never stop learning...)
Just 4 the record; I think it's RAS indeed and not RIS but since we/I weren't/wasn't sure we'd always go 4 the safe(and longest...) way and stay with Radar Control Services!!
Thanx again,
VAT
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Skyjob ]
This is VAT but can't get my mate's computer to change name
Anyway, I am indeed a FO with an airline and not ashamed to admit that I am not fully up to speed with the differences in ATC. Sorry 4 that.
I do however thank you all for the replies and think I learned again(never stop learning...)
Just 4 the record; I think it's RAS indeed and not RIS but since we/I weren't/wasn't sure we'd always go 4 the safe(and longest...) way and stay with Radar Control Services!!
Thanx again,
VAT
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Skyjob ]
