Heavy Suffix
From my perspective as a pilot, I like it. It helps with my situational awareness of what's ahead, and of what's leaving a calling card for me to find. As an example, at KORD they are so busy that you are usually not told what your following till you check in with the tower. I would like to know earlier to sit the F/A's down, bring the continuous ignition on, go a 1/2 dot high on the slope, etc, in case of a wake encounter. By listening we pilots do develop an idea for who is ahead of us by headings given, altitudes issued, etc. If I can deduce the plane ahead is a heavy by ATC addressing it as such, I can get the above items done earlier. As it is now, if I see someone more 2.5 ahead on final I assume its a heavy.
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West Coast;
I've heard this argument in ATPAC and smiled at it... I gave the senario of what most of our sectors run like and then threw out some verbage that you would normally hear on the radio and then asked the pilots in the room what was going on. Each gave their thoughts on it and not a single one of them were correct. Now, if you know that you are working a final controller who is only working one runway, then you probably will know what is going on to an extent, but in most departure, arrival freqs as well as enroute freqs, most pilots have no real idea of what the true picture is...
regards
Scott
I've heard this argument in ATPAC and smiled at it... I gave the senario of what most of our sectors run like and then threw out some verbage that you would normally hear on the radio and then asked the pilots in the room what was going on. Each gave their thoughts on it and not a single one of them were correct. Now, if you know that you are working a final controller who is only working one runway, then you probably will know what is going on to an extent, but in most departure, arrival freqs as well as enroute freqs, most pilots have no real idea of what the true picture is...
regards
Scott
Scott
I know you get all antsy when a pilot intimates anything to do with the big picture. Relax, I'm not, I sometimes have moments of clarity and figure out the lone guy ahead of me that I am following is a heavy by you calling it a heavy and receiving turns/headings that I see correlated on the TCAS and appropriate to the overlay of the approach on the MFD. Let me repeat, I don't have the big picture, that's what you get paid for. By the same measure we don't simply sit in the cockpit and not get some small amount of SA by listening to what's going on around us.
"most pilots have no real idea of what the true picture is"
I don't care what the true picture is, simply whom I'm following down the final. From your many posts here I see a pattern of shut up and I'll tell you what you need to know. Sorry, but I'm an active participant in the safe operation of the aircraft. My ass and my passengers, not yours. I don't want to do your job for you, but I also don't apologize for trying to glean as much info as I can. What of the times I have figured out I was behind a heavy, and seated the F/A's and encountered wake? Its little things like this I speak of, not whether I have appropriate separation, not what the guy on the parallel final is doing, etc that's your job. I'm not challenging your authority by what I describe above so quit acting like it.
I know you get all antsy when a pilot intimates anything to do with the big picture. Relax, I'm not, I sometimes have moments of clarity and figure out the lone guy ahead of me that I am following is a heavy by you calling it a heavy and receiving turns/headings that I see correlated on the TCAS and appropriate to the overlay of the approach on the MFD. Let me repeat, I don't have the big picture, that's what you get paid for. By the same measure we don't simply sit in the cockpit and not get some small amount of SA by listening to what's going on around us.
"most pilots have no real idea of what the true picture is"
I don't care what the true picture is, simply whom I'm following down the final. From your many posts here I see a pattern of shut up and I'll tell you what you need to know. Sorry, but I'm an active participant in the safe operation of the aircraft. My ass and my passengers, not yours. I don't want to do your job for you, but I also don't apologize for trying to glean as much info as I can. What of the times I have figured out I was behind a heavy, and seated the F/A's and encountered wake? Its little things like this I speak of, not whether I have appropriate separation, not what the guy on the parallel final is doing, etc that's your job. I'm not challenging your authority by what I describe above so quit acting like it.
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Bol Zup:
If a 757 is leading traffic, why is the seperation 4 miles? A 757 is not H but M. I believe for an airplane to have the H in the FPS it has to have a MTOW of 335,000Lbs.....Correct me if I'm wrong...
If a 757 is leading traffic, why is the seperation 4 miles? A 757 is not H but M. I believe for an airplane to have the H in the FPS it has to have a MTOW of 335,000Lbs.....Correct me if I'm wrong...
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MC - 757 wake
Morning
By ICAO definition (based on weight alone) a 757 is a medium vortex a/c and hence from a minimum of 3 miles (terminal control) and 5 miles (en route) would be needed.
However the actual vortex created by a 757 (and DC8, 707, VC10 and IL62s) is higher than the a/c weight would normally produce. Therefore, for approach spacing it is classed as an 'upper-medium', generally giving an extra mile over standard medium requirements.
Hope this helps.
PS. This only applies to the UK as I understand it
Regarding the other points, as a TC controller you have to be aware of vorex requirements although the only legal requirement that increases our 3 mile minimum is when an a/c other than a heavy is passing behind or in trail of a heavy. Then we need 5. Personally I always er on the side of caution and if a light is passing 4 or 5 miles behind anything bigger (and I get a spare moment), I'll warn the pilot that he might get a little nudge!).
And finally! It isn't a legal requirement to use the 'Heavy' suffix in the UK but I never object to it. The Yanks love it and the DLH too! Doesn't to any harm. I'd rather every heavy reported being heavy than a single oik who doesn't report their passing altitude and their INITIAL cleared altitude. That really annoys everyone!
By ICAO definition (based on weight alone) a 757 is a medium vortex a/c and hence from a minimum of 3 miles (terminal control) and 5 miles (en route) would be needed.
However the actual vortex created by a 757 (and DC8, 707, VC10 and IL62s) is higher than the a/c weight would normally produce. Therefore, for approach spacing it is classed as an 'upper-medium', generally giving an extra mile over standard medium requirements.
Hope this helps.
PS. This only applies to the UK as I understand it
Regarding the other points, as a TC controller you have to be aware of vorex requirements although the only legal requirement that increases our 3 mile minimum is when an a/c other than a heavy is passing behind or in trail of a heavy. Then we need 5. Personally I always er on the side of caution and if a light is passing 4 or 5 miles behind anything bigger (and I get a spare moment), I'll warn the pilot that he might get a little nudge!).
And finally! It isn't a legal requirement to use the 'Heavy' suffix in the UK but I never object to it. The Yanks love it and the DLH too! Doesn't to any harm. I'd rather every heavy reported being heavy than a single oik who doesn't report their passing altitude and their INITIAL cleared altitude. That really annoys everyone!
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Why DC-8 and 70's between brackets? Both aircraft are heavy jets. Considering a 757 being heavy must be a joke, as the MTOW of the 757 is lower then the MLW of a DC-8....
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A large number of incidents and accidents are attributed to the unusually high degree of wake turbulence associated with the 757. If you are behind one be extra cautious!
Ohcirrej
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Considering a 757 being heavy must be a joke, as the MTOW of the 757 is lower then the MLW of a DC-8....
The UK position on this is described in AIC 17/1999, thre are a number of differences from ICAO including increasing the spacing to 4 nm on final approach behind B757, VC10, B707, DC8 and IL62 aircraft when followed by an aircraft of Medium or smaller catagory.
You can read the AIC at http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4P188.PDF
You can read the AIC at http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4P188.PDF
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Its strange why the B757 is considered heavy for arrival spacing, but for departure purposes it can be considered a normal medium and the following aircraft cleared for takeoff 1 min behind. Why is this?
However, what was even more strange was doing departures on saturday when I get a call from a KLM 737 who said he was happy to accept 1 minute departure separation behind a B777!!! I wasn't happy so he got the full two mins!!
FB
However, what was even more strange was doing departures on saturday when I get a call from a KLM 737 who said he was happy to accept 1 minute departure separation behind a B777!!! I wasn't happy so he got the full two mins!!
FB
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Heya Fly Bhoy,
You handled well; when I flew the A320 I wouldn't think of accepting less than 2 mins behind a B777.
I have seen a Beechcraft Baron pilot taxiing out with a pack of snow on his wings, which everybody saw (including the tower and the followme's) "but it is the responsibility of the pilot".
I think that way of reasoning is b******t.
Also I saw a Dash-8 accepting less than a minute behind a 767, and he was cleared for TO by the tower. My opinion is that the tower controller could have easily prevented a very dangerous situation there, which he for some reason did not, too bad really!!
IMHO the controller would have shared at least some of the responsibility when something went wrong there.
P77
Back on topic:
I think that in the US the \'heavy\'-call is a little bit overdone. Even a rampfrequency insists on \'heavy\' being used. I see no problem at all telling the controller that we are a heavy, often (in the US) if I forget, the controller will readback \'heavy\' anyway.
But then I work for LH and apparently, reading this topic, we are the only ones in Europe :-)
P77
You handled well; when I flew the A320 I wouldn't think of accepting less than 2 mins behind a B777.
I have seen a Beechcraft Baron pilot taxiing out with a pack of snow on his wings, which everybody saw (including the tower and the followme's) "but it is the responsibility of the pilot".
I think that way of reasoning is b******t.
Also I saw a Dash-8 accepting less than a minute behind a 767, and he was cleared for TO by the tower. My opinion is that the tower controller could have easily prevented a very dangerous situation there, which he for some reason did not, too bad really!!
IMHO the controller would have shared at least some of the responsibility when something went wrong there.
P77
Back on topic:
I think that in the US the \'heavy\'-call is a little bit overdone. Even a rampfrequency insists on \'heavy\' being used. I see no problem at all telling the controller that we are a heavy, often (in the US) if I forget, the controller will readback \'heavy\' anyway.
But then I work for LH and apparently, reading this topic, we are the only ones in Europe :-)
P77
