Heathrow block no's
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Heathrow block no's
Is there any plan to update/re organise the taxiway identification at LHR it seems to be in a bit of a mess lately.
Block 131 is down by the 27L holding area yet 132 is right up by 27R. Caused us to make a bit of a mistake this morning vacating 09L at 117 bound for a T4 stand so expecting to head South along 23. Told to route via block 132 found 130,131 on the plate in the area we expected to head toward so headed in that direction whilst frantically searching for 132 only to find it behind us to the North.
OK so we made the mistake and should have asked but 121.7 was busy and our tail was still in the RET and we made the mistake of EXPECTING to go the usual way.
Just seems a bit unnecessary to have such an illogical layout of the block no.s.
Cheers RJ.
Block 131 is down by the 27L holding area yet 132 is right up by 27R. Caused us to make a bit of a mistake this morning vacating 09L at 117 bound for a T4 stand so expecting to head South along 23. Told to route via block 132 found 130,131 on the plate in the area we expected to head toward so headed in that direction whilst frantically searching for 132 only to find it behind us to the North.
OK so we made the mistake and should have asked but 121.7 was busy and our tail was still in the RET and we made the mistake of EXPECTING to go the usual way.
Just seems a bit unnecessary to have such an illogical layout of the block no.s.
Cheers RJ.
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rubberjungle,
I know what you mean, it was a bummer to learn them in the first place!
I've seen an email around in the tower about the Ops people doing a study on the implications of changing to the ICAO standard, ie. HA1, HA2, HA3 etc etc, so something may come of it.
Gonzo
I know what you mean, it was a bummer to learn them in the first place!
I've seen an email around in the tower about the Ops people doing a study on the implications of changing to the ICAO standard, ie. HA1, HA2, HA3 etc etc, so something may come of it.
Gonzo
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I sense a Heathrow newbie! Oh dear, someone was confused today. Right, first of all you would have vacated 09L at Block 17 (not Blk 117 which is on the extension taxiway on the way to 09L RHA). I don't understand the onward routeing either, as Blk 132 is in the 27R RHA! This is only generally used for remote holding traffic during Easterly operations. Was your stand occupied? Even if it was it would have been unusual to hold you so far from T4. I suspect that this was a slip of the tongue or a misheard instruction - (possibly a trianee on GMC?). Usual holding positions for crossing 09R are Blks 75/131, Blk 130, or Blk 78.
As for the illogical numbering system, the blocks are numbered in the order in which they were commissioned (more or less,)and Heathrow users have become accustomed to them over the years. We try and keep the use of block numbers to a minimum, and use plain language where this is clearer. Having said that, HAL are under considerable pressure to conform with international convention and use alpha numeric taxiway designators. HAL,and it must be said ATC, are against this proposal but should it be forced upon us the new designators will be introduced on a progressive basis, starting on the Southern half of the airport. Why do we oppose the change? Usual reasons - safety and to avoid confusion. The new designators will apply to much larger areas of concrete than the current block numbers. Say you were sitting in your B777 in a queue of several B777s of the same airline on the extension taxiway to 09R. Suddenly you have a fire and we have to direct the Airport Fire Service to you in a hurry. In the absence of outside clues, how do we accurately inform the AFS of your location? With block numbers it is far easier to pinpoint exact locations. Also with the plethora of alpha numeric stand numbers, I could imagine taxy instructions becoming both long winded and confusing. RTF loading is heavy enough on GMC and I don't think that the introduction of new taxiway designators is likely to help the situation. Just my opinion.
As for the illogical numbering system, the blocks are numbered in the order in which they were commissioned (more or less,)and Heathrow users have become accustomed to them over the years. We try and keep the use of block numbers to a minimum, and use plain language where this is clearer. Having said that, HAL are under considerable pressure to conform with international convention and use alpha numeric taxiway designators. HAL,and it must be said ATC, are against this proposal but should it be forced upon us the new designators will be introduced on a progressive basis, starting on the Southern half of the airport. Why do we oppose the change? Usual reasons - safety and to avoid confusion. The new designators will apply to much larger areas of concrete than the current block numbers. Say you were sitting in your B777 in a queue of several B777s of the same airline on the extension taxiway to 09R. Suddenly you have a fire and we have to direct the Airport Fire Service to you in a hurry. In the absence of outside clues, how do we accurately inform the AFS of your location? With block numbers it is far easier to pinpoint exact locations. Also with the plethora of alpha numeric stand numbers, I could imagine taxy instructions becoming both long winded and confusing. RTF loading is heavy enough on GMC and I don't think that the introduction of new taxiway designators is likely to help the situation. Just my opinion.
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Gonzo thanks for the constructive reply.
ATCO2 I am not that new really, just prepared to admit when I made a mistake for some constructive comment. It was block 17 you are quite correct.We were supposed to do a 180 into 132 so the radio comms were correct.I have been routed several times down to cross at the 27left threshold when going to a Victor stand.
Valid point about several A/C in a line, this would also occur just about anywhere busy--maybe ask A/C in question to switch on all lights for ident.
Cheers RJ
ATCO2 I am not that new really, just prepared to admit when I made a mistake for some constructive comment. It was block 17 you are quite correct.We were supposed to do a 180 into 132 so the radio comms were correct.I have been routed several times down to cross at the 27left threshold when going to a Victor stand.
Valid point about several A/C in a line, this would also occur just about anywhere busy--maybe ask A/C in question to switch on all lights for ident.
Cheers RJ
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Hi RJ,
Still a strange routeing - what was the reason for turning left into Blk 132? I wasn't inferring that it was you that was confused! Reference crossing at 27L threshold, that's why I mentioned holding in Blks 75/131 in my reply. As a T4 operator we would only expect you to be familiar with blocks used for holding before crossing a runway - the ones I mentioned, plus Blks 67(o), 90, 91 and 118 and the blocks in the RHAs for each runway.
Still a strange routeing - what was the reason for turning left into Blk 132? I wasn't inferring that it was you that was confused! Reference crossing at 27L threshold, that's why I mentioned holding in Blks 75/131 in my reply. As a T4 operator we would only expect you to be familiar with blocks used for holding before crossing a runway - the ones I mentioned, plus Blks 67(o), 90, 91 and 118 and the blocks in the RHAs for each runway.
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Hi ATCO2
There was an SAA (I think) Jumbo being towed up 23 to the maintenance area and it was a delaying tactic to get us out of the way of somebody vacating after us. But was certainly unusual.
Wish more airports(ie USA) had switchable greens like LHR makes a hell of a difference in the fog.
Tata..
There was an SAA (I think) Jumbo being towed up 23 to the maintenance area and it was a delaying tactic to get us out of the way of somebody vacating after us. But was certainly unusual.
Wish more airports(ie USA) had switchable greens like LHR makes a hell of a difference in the fog.
Tata..
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Just wondered if anyone in the tower at LHR, "likes" the new cul de sac names (e.g. the "BRAVOS" are now called the "JULIETTES") or the five letter airfield reporting points?
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ATCO Two;
It seems to work well in the rest of the world... As to being able to find an aircraft it works well everywhere else. I expect that you will be able to adapt. Shoot, we had to adapt to ICAO airspace stuff as well as METAR <G>... Surely y'all can adapt to right on Bravo left on Tango two, taxi to the gate <G>...
regards
Scott
It seems to work well in the rest of the world... As to being able to find an aircraft it works well everywhere else. I expect that you will be able to adapt. Shoot, we had to adapt to ICAO airspace stuff as well as METAR <G>... Surely y'all can adapt to right on Bravo left on Tango two, taxi to the gate <G>...
regards
Scott
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Holding point designations are in now, and block numbers will be out the window. Outer will be Taxiway Alpha, inner will be taxiway Bravo, and the cul-de-sacs have already been re-designated in preparation.
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LHR 5 letter designators
Preppy
If LHR are now using the 5 letter designators as per a map I saw, there was one called MOROW down by 27L holding area...does this invite the phrase "taxi tomorrow"?
tori
ATCO 2
Alpha numeric stands at LHR? They changed to ICAO 3-number style during the summer...how long since you made it back across the M4 to visit?
Tori
If LHR are now using the 5 letter designators as per a map I saw, there was one called MOROW down by 27L holding area...does this invite the phrase "taxi tomorrow"?
tori
ATCO 2
Alpha numeric stands at LHR? They changed to ICAO 3-number style during the summer...how long since you made it back across the M4 to visit?
Tori
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Tori,
ATCO Two's post was in January 2001! I'm sure he's well aware of the change........well, hope so!!!!!
And the 'Taxi to MORRA' has been used over and over and over and over and over again.........to many groans from all in the tower! And is SATUN really pronounced 'Satan' I wonder.........???
Cleared someone to PLUTO the other day, the crew asked where Uranus was.........
ATCO Two's post was in January 2001! I'm sure he's well aware of the change........well, hope so!!!!!
And the 'Taxi to MORRA' has been used over and over and over and over and over again.........to many groans from all in the tower! And is SATUN really pronounced 'Satan' I wonder.........???
Cleared someone to PLUTO the other day, the crew asked where Uranus was.........
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Erm, yes I am kind of aware of the changes! Thanks Gonzo for saving me the trouble of mentioning the dates on my last postings on the subject. Rumour has it that the 27L holding points are named after the daughters of the BAA Chairman. There has already been confusion between LOKKI and ROKIT, believe it or not.
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Hold at PLUTO......Roger, hold at three two.......Negative, hold at holding point PLUTO.........Roger, hold at block TWO TWO...............................Errrrr, Hold on the left of the holding area!
The new holding point desigators at LHR are a joke I'm afraid. I don't who came up with the idea but most pilots who don't have English as their first language seem to have a problem with them. They just don't sound like "aviation speak" and I think most non-english speakers think they are mis-hearing a word rather than hearing a holding point name. Back to the drawing board I think, I mean ETTIV and HORKA, give me strength!.
Same goes for the stands, I know ICAO have pushed the change but most other European airports still have alpha-numerics (AMS and CDG for a start) and I don't think you will be seeing them change. Why?, because it works well. What we have now may be standard but it's inferior in every way to what went before it and the same will be true when the taxiways get changed.
Same goes for the stands, I know ICAO have pushed the change but most other European airports still have alpha-numerics (AMS and CDG for a start) and I don't think you will be seeing them change. Why?, because it works well. What we have now may be standard but it's inferior in every way to what went before it and the same will be true when the taxiways get changed.
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Totally agree with Max Angle
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!
The system at LHR has worked well for years, why change something if it works. EU Crap
Would probably put money on still parking on T1 or T3 at CDG in 10 years or D18 at AMS.
Could someone please answer why the Cul-de-sac's were re lettered? ie bravo's now lima's etc a letter is a letter surley.
so presumeably it was in compliance before!!!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!
The system at LHR has worked well for years, why change something if it works. EU Crap
Would probably put money on still parking on T1 or T3 at CDG in 10 years or D18 at AMS.
Could someone please answer why the Cul-de-sac's were re lettered? ie bravo's now lima's etc a letter is a letter surley.
so presumeably it was in compliance before!!!
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max angle and gonzo
Many consider that the new LHR taxiway designations that will be implemented before Easter are frankly a mess.
I understand that the five letter holding point designations will be changed shortly to six letter designations.......
Many consider that the new LHR taxiway designations that will be implemented before Easter are frankly a mess.
I understand that the five letter holding point designations will be changed shortly to six letter designations.......
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Fast cruiser,
The same cul-de-sac designations could not be kept because we'd run out of letters with T5.
Preppy,
Who have you heard that from? First I've heard of it.
The same cul-de-sac designations could not be kept because we'd run out of letters with T5.
Preppy,
Who have you heard that from? First I've heard of it.
