ATC around north east USA 11 September
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ATC around north east USA 11 September
Like many other airline pilots on PPRuNe I have some idea how ATC works but I would be interested to know how the situation on 11 Sep would have appeared to the controllers. How would they respond to the developing situation? I cannot believe that the final outcome could have been predicted, but the controllers must have had some ideas as the situation developed.
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Security is the subject of much derision in my workplace, but the message of this series of disasters is the hi-jackers had far too much knowledge. They knew what they could get on the aircraft, they knew what the crew would do & they knew what the passengers would do when they waved around their "bomb".
Next time, if you want them to know what ATC will do as well, keep putting up stupid posts like this one.
If you actually want the information visit an ATC center and ask there, not ask it in an open forum.
Some ATC are so convinced of their own cleverness they may tell you.
Next time, if you want them to know what ATC will do as well, keep putting up stupid posts like this one.
If you actually want the information visit an ATC center and ask there, not ask it in an open forum.
Some ATC are so convinced of their own cleverness they may tell you.
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Come on, its a fair enough thing to wonder about, and definitely not a stupid post.
Lets be honest, if someone wanted to find out how ATC works, I hardly think they would rely on reading a BB. There's enough written on the subject, both in books and on the net to provide all the information required.
Lets be honest, if someone wanted to find out how ATC works, I hardly think they would rely on reading a BB. There's enough written on the subject, both in books and on the net to provide all the information required.
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Karrank,
I hardly think any potential hijacker is going to read PPRuNe and go out and do things just as they read it. Read the red writing at bottom of the screen.
However disseminating any useful information among the pilot / ATC fraternity may help those people recognise a problem when they see it.
There has been too much rubbish stated on the site about giving out sensitive information. The hijackers read the flight manuals freely available from Boeing and the internet - they didn't get the information from PPRuNE.
Now grow up and let's have a sensible discussion!
Thank you Hob for a sensible reply.
I hardly think any potential hijacker is going to read PPRuNe and go out and do things just as they read it. Read the red writing at bottom of the screen.
However disseminating any useful information among the pilot / ATC fraternity may help those people recognise a problem when they see it.
There has been too much rubbish stated on the site about giving out sensitive information. The hijackers read the flight manuals freely available from Boeing and the internet - they didn't get the information from PPRuNE.
Now grow up and let's have a sensible discussion!
Thank you Hob for a sensible reply.
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So folks (getting back to the sensible discussion) what would we have done?
[I'll put a qualifier in here - none of what I will say after this point is "Restricted", "Confidential", "Top Secret" or otherwise ... it is all available in the public domain for ANYBODY who can read!]
A/C stops talking ... Radio fail? Possibly something more serious??? Action: Get everything else out of the way and monitor the situation. Keep calling. Liase with adjacent ATC. ASSUME (and this could be part of the problem) that the A/C will climb to their FP level, leave CAS etc, etc.
These guys knew something about flying. The reports I've read said that the X-ponders were switched off. Again I have to ask, what would you do? And what COULD we do as ATCOs?
Perhaps there is an argument for NOT publishing the procedures I have just mentioned (and others). I'm almost tempted to say that if 50 people don't e-mail me back tomorrow with the code for "Hijack" I'll give £1000 to the first 200 people who e-mail me and say "Yaa Boo Sucks to You!" However - I know (and you all do too) that my money is safe. We need to think about how we do things and how we can ensure a safe and civilised world.
[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: Late Downwind ]
[I'll put a qualifier in here - none of what I will say after this point is "Restricted", "Confidential", "Top Secret" or otherwise ... it is all available in the public domain for ANYBODY who can read!]
A/C stops talking ... Radio fail? Possibly something more serious??? Action: Get everything else out of the way and monitor the situation. Keep calling. Liase with adjacent ATC. ASSUME (and this could be part of the problem) that the A/C will climb to their FP level, leave CAS etc, etc.
These guys knew something about flying. The reports I've read said that the X-ponders were switched off. Again I have to ask, what would you do? And what COULD we do as ATCOs?
Perhaps there is an argument for NOT publishing the procedures I have just mentioned (and others). I'm almost tempted to say that if 50 people don't e-mail me back tomorrow with the code for "Hijack" I'll give £1000 to the first 200 people who e-mail me and say "Yaa Boo Sucks to You!" However - I know (and you all do too) that my money is safe. We need to think about how we do things and how we can ensure a safe and civilised world.
[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: Late Downwind ]
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We can only speculate as to what ATC saw and did. You can be sure that with their amount of preparation the hijackers knew pretty well exactly how ATC would / could react. I can only hope that the ATC people who do need to know (and that is all of them) get told what happened with ATC in north east USA on that day, so that they can recognise it when it happens.
It has happened before where, for example, faults on a particular aircraft with one operator have not been transmitted to other operators with subsequent catostrophic results with the same fault reccuring.
We must learn from this tragedy, and that goes for all of us in this business.
It has happened before where, for example, faults on a particular aircraft with one operator have not been transmitted to other operators with subsequent catostrophic results with the same fault reccuring.
We must learn from this tragedy, and that goes for all of us in this business.
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Flap 5.
Speaking as a controller (not Stateside) I can answer with my ASSUMPTIONS of what happenned that day in the Tracon centre.
Like everyone else on the ground, they would have had no idea of what was about to happen.
1)Obviously, when the a/c stopped their Transponders (I believe not all did, only a few, but I got that from PPRuNe) the controller would have noticed a problem and followed the normal procedures of 'Alerting Action'.
2)Next, as Late Downwind says, you would keep everything away from the now Primary return, and someone different would probably keep track of the subject aircraft. Transmitting blind and trying to recover RTF contact would also be done.
3) Crap yourself. Things aren't going how they should, there is obviously a problem, so who wouldn't.
4) Sit tight and await further instructions from Management who miraclously appear in seconds!
As with many serious incidents, news will spread quickly around the ops room so all in the centre will know the score. I cannot even imagine the feelings in the centres when they realised that
four a/c were unaccounted for, and I expect that a corrolation was made. Depending on the radar strenghts at the source centre, all a/c will have been followed until they dissappeared. That could either have been until they got outside the radar range (away from the source), or below the cover (gradually increases in height the further away you get). The third reason hopefully is obvious. If they did get too far away, no doubt the ident would have been passed to the next Tracon and followed by them until they got to their resting place. I expect that it would have been known almost straight away what happenned after a call to New York VCR at JFK.
Speaking as a controller (not Stateside) I can answer with my ASSUMPTIONS of what happenned that day in the Tracon centre.
Like everyone else on the ground, they would have had no idea of what was about to happen.
1)Obviously, when the a/c stopped their Transponders (I believe not all did, only a few, but I got that from PPRuNe) the controller would have noticed a problem and followed the normal procedures of 'Alerting Action'.
2)Next, as Late Downwind says, you would keep everything away from the now Primary return, and someone different would probably keep track of the subject aircraft. Transmitting blind and trying to recover RTF contact would also be done.
3) Crap yourself. Things aren't going how they should, there is obviously a problem, so who wouldn't.
4) Sit tight and await further instructions from Management who miraclously appear in seconds!
As with many serious incidents, news will spread quickly around the ops room so all in the centre will know the score. I cannot even imagine the feelings in the centres when they realised that
four a/c were unaccounted for, and I expect that a corrolation was made. Depending on the radar strenghts at the source centre, all a/c will have been followed until they dissappeared. That could either have been until they got outside the radar range (away from the source), or below the cover (gradually increases in height the further away you get). The third reason hopefully is obvious. If they did get too far away, no doubt the ident would have been passed to the next Tracon and followed by them until they got to their resting place. I expect that it would have been known almost straight away what happenned after a call to New York VCR at JFK.
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Not much to add to Mount P's post....also a non stateside ATCO.....
Only thing to add really is that ATC are very much powerless in most situations and are there to supply as much pertinent info to aircrew (without crowding) as they can, be it a hijack or emergency situation. If the "crew" don't want to listen as per the 11th then we are all spectators....we just miss the aircraft with all the others and talk to adjacent centres etc... It's not a nice thought but that is how it is...
My thoughts go out to the guys 'n' gals who were working those ill fated aircraft (obviously to the poor soles aboard), powerless yet in charge??? A horrible situation, glad it wasn't me, don't think I'd sleep well.....
NsR.........
thinking hard
Only thing to add really is that ATC are very much powerless in most situations and are there to supply as much pertinent info to aircrew (without crowding) as they can, be it a hijack or emergency situation. If the "crew" don't want to listen as per the 11th then we are all spectators....we just miss the aircraft with all the others and talk to adjacent centres etc... It's not a nice thought but that is how it is...
My thoughts go out to the guys 'n' gals who were working those ill fated aircraft (obviously to the poor soles aboard), powerless yet in charge??? A horrible situation, glad it wasn't me, don't think I'd sleep well.....
NsR.........
thinking hard
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Mount Plessey,
Thanks for that. It has confirmed my view that there would be a significant time lag between the hijack and something being done about it. Maybe now that that is now known something could be done to tighten it up.
Thanks for that. It has confirmed my view that there would be a significant time lag between the hijack and something being done about it. Maybe now that that is now known something could be done to tighten it up.
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Up until last Tuesday that was the way things were looking; get rid of primary and just use the mechanical parts left to spin a beacon interegator. Then there is the automatic dependent surveillance proponents where the aircraft tells you or everybody where it is, then there is another bunch looking at putting the data on the transponder reply.
Nifty technologies and concepts, but then the real world gets in the way with half baked transponders that haven't been annualed (is that a word) in decades, equipment failures, Terra transponders, etc.
Nifty technologies and concepts, but then the real world gets in the way with half baked transponders that haven't been annualed (is that a word) in decades, equipment failures, Terra transponders, etc.
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Perhaps a bit off the thread of this discussion, but can anyone say if they declared SCATANA on the day. We watched from our Ops Control on the ASD (Flight Explorer4) lines of aircraft, some 15 or more in train diverting into what I supose was their nearest available.
I hope I'll never see the likes again.
I hope I'll never see the likes again.
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As an Ex-ATCO and now a professional pilot I think we should be careful what we mention on BB’s. Policy makers spend weeks, months and years thinking on ways to do things in the interest of security. ATC procedures and specific technical information on aircraft is food for thought for these idiots who would love to compromise them and the more we tell them the easier it is. You have to ask yourself are you helping our fellow countrymen to defend our National Security or the idiots who would like to cause us, or our allies harm. I’m sure you would agree information here could be used for no good elsewhere in the world. If you think this is a little over the top then think hard about the countless thousands in NYC who thought it wouldn’t happen to them. NYC it’s so far away and we have enough idiots in the UK and Europe to be watching out for.
If aircrews are interested in the background to ATC procedures then they should contact an ATSU at a center or airport and arrange a visit. The ATCO’s would be keen on the visits and you’ll get a free mug of tea or coffee and a sticky bun! Well I don’t know about the sticky bun, but you can try!
If aircrews are interested in the background to ATC procedures then they should contact an ATSU at a center or airport and arrange a visit. The ATCO’s would be keen on the visits and you’ll get a free mug of tea or coffee and a sticky bun! Well I don’t know about the sticky bun, but you can try!
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As an Ex-ATCO and now a professional pilot I think we should be careful what we mention on BB’s. Policy makers spend weeks, months and years thinking on ways to do things in the interest of security. ATC procedures and specific technical information on aircraft is food for thought for these idiots who would love to compromise them and the more we tell them the easier it is. You have to ask yourself are you helping our fellow countrymen to defend our National Security or the idiots who would like to cause us, or our allies harm. I’m sure you would agree information here could be used for no good elsewhere in the world. If you think this is a little over the top then think hard about the countless thousands in NYC who thought it wouldn’t happen to them. NYC it’s so far away and we have enough idiots in the UK and Europe to be watching out for.
If aircrews are interested in the background to ATC procedures then they should contact an ATSU at a center or airport and arrange a visit. The ATCO’s would be keen on the visits and you’ll get a free mug of tea or coffee and a sticky bun! Well I don’t know about the sticky bun, but you can try!
If aircrews are interested in the background to ATC procedures then they should contact an ATSU at a center or airport and arrange a visit. The ATCO’s would be keen on the visits and you’ll get a free mug of tea or coffee and a sticky bun! Well I don’t know about the sticky bun, but you can try!
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In the drink
Yes of course there are procedures which should remain on a 'need to know basis', however, if your last post was directed at my question. You should be aware that this is publish in the US AIM, (our equiv. of the Air Pilot) so nothing confidential about my question, matter of ATC/Pilot procedure.Any PPL would have that available to him.
Yes of course there are procedures which should remain on a 'need to know basis', however, if your last post was directed at my question. You should be aware that this is publish in the US AIM, (our equiv. of the Air Pilot) so nothing confidential about my question, matter of ATC/Pilot procedure.Any PPL would have that available to him.
