Maintain rwy heading?
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Maintain rwy heading?
Hello chaps! (ooh, I'm nervous about coming in here).
Thicko pilot has a question for you- When told to 'maintain runway heading' do you expect us to do exactly that, or should we adjust to maintain the QDR track of the runway? What with the recent winds, it's kinda got me thinking with regard to obstacle clearance etc.. I know in the states that controllers allow for the drift, but what about in the U.K.?
Thanks a lot, keep up the good work (creep)
What goes up............
Thicko pilot has a question for you- When told to 'maintain runway heading' do you expect us to do exactly that, or should we adjust to maintain the QDR track of the runway? What with the recent winds, it's kinda got me thinking with regard to obstacle clearance etc.. I know in the states that controllers allow for the drift, but what about in the U.K.?
Thanks a lot, keep up the good work (creep)
What goes up............
Guest
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In answer to your q - maintain runway heading was replaced in 1998 with 'climb straight ahead' in order to stop this confusion.
In essence we want you to go as straight as poss after dep taking into account the wind etc.
Hope confusion cleared up
In essence we want you to go as straight as poss after dep taking into account the wind etc.
Hope confusion cleared up
Guest
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As a TMA radar controller, if I tell you to continue runway heading, then the heading is what I want. OK obstacle clearance may be an issue at some places, or to approach/deps radar if you're not above 1000' or so, but can't think of a situation where you'd be talking to me and so low as to be an issue.
And of course, I'd never dream of giving you a heading below the noise restriction altitude, would I?
Fair point though, and if you're unsure, ask!
Personally, I only say it if I want to stop you taking a SID turn, so +/-10 degrees, who cares, though obviously off parallels closing on other runway dep/go around could be fun.
And of course, I'd never dream of giving you a heading below the noise restriction altitude, would I?
Fair point though, and if you're unsure, ask!
Personally, I only say it if I want to stop you taking a SID turn, so +/-10 degrees, who cares, though obviously off parallels closing on other runway dep/go around could be fun.
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No problem off parallels, assuming the fellow off the other runway is doing the same thing - the wind will affect you both the same.
As another thicko pilot (!) I've always taken "maintain runway heading" to mean maintain the heading of the runway and so do most of my mates, so if you guys mean something else best you tell us!! Must admit, I've never heard "climb straight ahead" - hopefully that would cause me to query what it was you wanted.
As another thicko pilot (!) I've always taken "maintain runway heading" to mean maintain the heading of the runway
and so do most of my mates, so if you guys mean something else best you tell us!! Must admit, I've never heard "climb straight ahead" - hopefully that would cause me to query what it was you wanted.
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tired
In the UK you shouldn't be told to continue on runway heading.
It'll either be 'continue on present heading' in which case you will drift off the extended runway centreline (probably).
Or else it's 'climb straight ahead' which means the pilot should attempt to track the extended centreline making adjustments for drift.
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 11 November 2000).]
In the UK you shouldn't be told to continue on runway heading.
It'll either be 'continue on present heading' in which case you will drift off the extended runway centreline (probably).
Or else it's 'climb straight ahead' which means the pilot should attempt to track the extended centreline making adjustments for drift.
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 11 November 2000).]
Guest
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Affangu, I was nervous on my first time too. I must admit I don't come in as often as I should. (I feel as if I'm talking about church or something). It's easily the most informative forum, though. They're not such a bad bunch and they always display saintly patience when we ask the same questions time and time again. Not something you can say about some of the characters who prey on genuine humbletons on other fora.
We have a most useful feature on my wannabe jet RJ 100 (trumped up 146) called Take-off Track mode into which it automatically reverts at 80kts. This takes care of drift for you. Of course, on a windy day trying to regain the centreline, the track it defaults to might be a few degrees out! Sorry boys! I'll try to remember this thread.
I would have thought most aircraft had this feature. No?
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 12 November 2000).]
We have a most useful feature on my wannabe jet RJ 100 (trumped up 146) called Take-off Track mode into which it automatically reverts at 80kts. This takes care of drift for you. Of course, on a windy day trying to regain the centreline, the track it defaults to might be a few degrees out! Sorry boys! I'll try to remember this thread.
I would have thought most aircraft had this feature. No?
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 12 November 2000).]
Guest
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To be honest when I instruct an aircraft to "climb straight ahead" i always expect some sort of drift, either wind enduced or over compensation. The fact that you are told to climb SA means basically dont commence the turn SID or otherwise. But thanks for trying your best to go along the centre line.
SS this function in the RJ100 does it pull your speed back to 80kts or did i misunderstand?
SS this function in the RJ100 does it pull your speed back to 80kts or did i misunderstand?
Joined: Sep 1998
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From: Sydney, Australia
Terrain at the airport where I work is not a real problem re "maintain runway heading". However, ever since we got closed-spaced parallels the phraseology has been a topic of discussion.
Generally the intent is to have the aircraft climb on runway centreline. A couple of controllers here say "Maintain runway track". With recent ICAO phraseology harmonisation our AIP now says "Track ...(magnetic direction of runway...)" or "Climb straight ahead". However, people frequently fall back to the old phrase "Maintain runway heading". (I've just noted that "maintaining runway heading" is listed as a pilot phrase on first contact with Departures, but it is not listed as an option for ATC to issue as a departure instruction.)
To me "Maintain runway heading" means just that - no allowance for drift. It doesn't seem appropriate in a parallel runway scenario, especially close-spaced. Additionally, given the ambiguity in AIP, I would like to see pilots query "heading or track?"
Ausatco
[This message has been edited by Ausatco (edited 13 November 2000).]
Generally the intent is to have the aircraft climb on runway centreline. A couple of controllers here say "Maintain runway track". With recent ICAO phraseology harmonisation our AIP now says "Track ...(magnetic direction of runway...)" or "Climb straight ahead". However, people frequently fall back to the old phrase "Maintain runway heading". (I've just noted that "maintaining runway heading" is listed as a pilot phrase on first contact with Departures, but it is not listed as an option for ATC to issue as a departure instruction.)
To me "Maintain runway heading" means just that - no allowance for drift. It doesn't seem appropriate in a parallel runway scenario, especially close-spaced. Additionally, given the ambiguity in AIP, I would like to see pilots query "heading or track?"
Ausatco
[This message has been edited by Ausatco (edited 13 November 2000).]
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Cleared to land: Sorry, my wording was a little ambiguous. What I mean is that at 80kts the computer automatically puts the aircraft into T.O.T. mode and it remains there until the pilot selects heading mode, say for a turn on the sid or to obey those who must be obeyed i.e. YOU.
Regards Secret Squirrel. BTW, anyone going to the Gatbash?
Regards Secret Squirrel. BTW, anyone going to the Gatbash?
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I work outside the UK as well and we have changed our procedure about 2 years ago. We now use "climb straight ahead" meaning the pilot should continue on runway track and correct for any drift off this track. We also have a 15 nm fix on both sides of the runway and the initial clearance is for the aircraft to climb straight ahead to this fix at 15 nm. Most pilots seem happy to climb" straight ahead to fix". We no longer use rwy heading as I believe it was replaced with runway track by ICAO.
Bye.
Bye.
Guest
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One reason (in the UK anyway) why we give "Climb straight ahead" is for the Tower controller to separate the departure from other traffic (possibly Special VFR) under their control - and as an Aerodrome controller he/she cannot use any type of radar equipment, and therefore cannot give headings. So to guarantee separation by using this method I expect the pilot to take the drift into account and track the extended centreline.
If, on the other hand, an "after departure" heading is given to the Tower controller by Approach Radar in order to separate from Approach's traffic, the radar controller should take the drift into account when requiring the aircraft to track straight ahead.
If, on the other hand, an "after departure" heading is given to the Tower controller by Approach Radar in order to separate from Approach's traffic, the radar controller should take the drift into account when requiring the aircraft to track straight ahead.
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Thanks all,
Much appreciated- It's clear as mud now!
I guess the thing to take away from this is, as always, querie it if unsure. That's definately what I'll do from now on (so don't moan when I do!!)
Thanks very much for your polite responses,
Affangu
Much appreciated- It's clear as mud now!
I guess the thing to take away from this is, as always, querie it if unsure. That's definately what I'll do from now on (so don't moan when I do!!)
Thanks very much for your polite responses,
Affangu
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Just a small point onthis climb straight ahead business. At a London TMA airport where I work there is a standard alt restriction on 6000alt, having been taught and used climb straight (for separation of a dep against a go around for example) some pilots have been known to take this as meaning keep climbing, straight ahead until advised. I know always include at some subsequent point maintain 6000 ft at an appropriate point, normally once the confliction has been resolved, and I feel the cockpit workload will have subsided a little and before QSY-ing to TC.
And I don't know where you work "U R number 1" but we have dispensation to use our ATM to ensure radar separation in certain circumstances, eg wrong SID flown, go-arounds etc, so whilst your point is a good one which I accept, it does not apply in all cases.
And I don't know where you work "U R number 1" but we have dispensation to use our ATM to ensure radar separation in certain circumstances, eg wrong SID flown, go-arounds etc, so whilst your point is a good one which I accept, it does not apply in all cases.
