ATC's - Salary & Basic service conditions ???
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Good thread, but in ATC there are a lot less employers in the field than driver employers. Each country has on ave about one employer in ATC. Add 1 if there is military -who's influence in the industry is effectively limited to producing cheap ATC's on taxpayers cost for the "privatised" civil employers to hire.
The WLATC (World League Of ATCs) web site had some pay stuff a while ago. Some good insight as to who get shafted the worst.
I think my vote goes to the Brazilian ATCs. The cost of living in Rio is so high that an ATC salary can buy you either a flat (smallish)or a car or a desktop PC. But not more that one of the mentioned items.
Then add "nationalistic" and "protectionism" attitudes from the governments.
Add privatised ATC employers that won't admit they are short of staff (because then the public starts asking embarrassing questions about profit margins etc.)
Add politicions that believe ATC is a cash-cow that needs milking ...
Add underwrites that won't insure ATC licenses because they think we are all in poor health due to stress...
Add ICAO, CAA and FAA lisence requirements and employers that want you to pay for your own very expensive conversions...
...and you sit with a very depressed flow of ATC's in the market.
Whatever we say and know isn't going to change anything...
Only demand and supply could.
Skytalker
The WLATC (World League Of ATCs) web site had some pay stuff a while ago. Some good insight as to who get shafted the worst.
I think my vote goes to the Brazilian ATCs. The cost of living in Rio is so high that an ATC salary can buy you either a flat (smallish)or a car or a desktop PC. But not more that one of the mentioned items.
Then add "nationalistic" and "protectionism" attitudes from the governments.
Add privatised ATC employers that won't admit they are short of staff (because then the public starts asking embarrassing questions about profit margins etc.)
Add politicions that believe ATC is a cash-cow that needs milking ...
Add underwrites that won't insure ATC licenses because they think we are all in poor health due to stress...
Add ICAO, CAA and FAA lisence requirements and employers that want you to pay for your own very expensive conversions...
...and you sit with a very depressed flow of ATC's in the market.
Whatever we say and know isn't going to change anything...
Only demand and supply could.
Skytalker
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OK then... Here's my ingredients to throw into the melting pot... I'm an ex-NATS ATCO now working for Serco (and yes, I did make the change voluntarily !!)...
Monthly take home 2300; 35 hour week; no shift work; Mon-Fri only; one hour for lunch each day; 25 days annual leave, plus a few extra at Christmas time (varies depending on the day Christmas falls, but generally not far off an extra week)...
I think that about covers it... Oh yes, pension almost identical to NATS, assuming it hasn't changed in the last few years...
[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: the hunted one ]
Monthly take home 2300; 35 hour week; no shift work; Mon-Fri only; one hour for lunch each day; 25 days annual leave, plus a few extra at Christmas time (varies depending on the day Christmas falls, but generally not far off an extra week)...
I think that about covers it... Oh yes, pension almost identical to NATS, assuming it hasn't changed in the last few years...
[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: the hunted one ]
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OZ Conditions: in AUD. which is currently about 1/2 the US$.
Per Annum:
ATC in training at the College $27900
ATC in training Final Field $41800
Licenced ATC $63200 to $113600
Varies upon locations and experience; sometimes on endorsements held.
Supervisors (Team Leaders) get an extra 10% to top rate at their location.
Trainers (when training) get 8% extra, doesn't apply to trainig college though.
24 rotating shifts for most ATC's; minimum shift length 6 hours maximum 10 hours; averaged over 72 hour fortnight; 4 weeks leave plus an extra one if you work 10 Sundays in a year. No shifts can start or end between 1201 and 0459. Maximum of 10 days worked in a row. Minimum 2 day break after 5 days of work (doesn't apply to overtime shifts). Good access to sickleave; but pressure is from Management is getting tougher.... A few bad apples and everyone suffers.
All of the above is about to change as we are currently in contract talks.
They won't listen to us.....
null
Per Annum:
ATC in training at the College $27900
ATC in training Final Field $41800
Licenced ATC $63200 to $113600
Varies upon locations and experience; sometimes on endorsements held.
Supervisors (Team Leaders) get an extra 10% to top rate at their location.
Trainers (when training) get 8% extra, doesn't apply to trainig college though.
24 rotating shifts for most ATC's; minimum shift length 6 hours maximum 10 hours; averaged over 72 hour fortnight; 4 weeks leave plus an extra one if you work 10 Sundays in a year. No shifts can start or end between 1201 and 0459. Maximum of 10 days worked in a row. Minimum 2 day break after 5 days of work (doesn't apply to overtime shifts). Good access to sickleave; but pressure is from Management is getting tougher.... A few bad apples and everyone suffers.
All of the above is about to change as we are currently in contract talks.
They won't listen to us.....
null
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Just goes to show the working practices agreements within NATS have helped to preserve ones sanity.
Any ATCO even thinking about having to do a 'split shift' needs psychiatric help. I did this kind of shift for years, coming in for a morning and coming back for a night shift the same day. It is a serious killer, thus the regulation of ATCO hours we now have within UK ATC.
On the basis of the posting made above, UK ATCO's dont do badly!
Any ATCO even thinking about having to do a 'split shift' needs psychiatric help. I did this kind of shift for years, coming in for a morning and coming back for a night shift the same day. It is a serious killer, thus the regulation of ATCO hours we now have within UK ATC.
On the basis of the posting made above, UK ATCO's dont do badly!
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I guess that we do split shifts as you call them all of the time then... We work two evenings and then do a double back for two day shifts and then a midnight shift on the same evening that you did the day shift. We do that every week if you get saddled with the midnight shift...
regards :o :o :o
regards :o :o :o
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For $100,000USD+ per year, fair enough too 
Scott,
Do you think in the next 5 years there is a possibility that NATCA good "organise" the lowering of requirements for employment from citizenship to residency(green cards) to alleviate your shortages?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: The Crimson Fruitbat ]
Scott,
Do you think in the next 5 years there is a possibility that NATCA good "organise" the lowering of requirements for employment from citizenship to residency(green cards) to alleviate your shortages?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: The Crimson Fruitbat ]
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good idea to fight against salary-rumors
mil. german contollers do have to do second military jobs beside ATC e.g. NBC-Officer or others. located at QRA-bases needs 365days/24hrs results in shiftenduranies up to 14.5(!)hrs (weekend-nightshift).
the average income incl. benefits for weekends, nightshift, 2children on best tax cat. - less than 35.000€/a - no joke!!
And since we´ll get an Eurofighter - there is no money for proper equipment, means unrelayable radar.
mil. german contollers do have to do second military jobs beside ATC e.g. NBC-Officer or others. located at QRA-bases needs 365days/24hrs results in shiftenduranies up to 14.5(!)hrs (weekend-nightshift).
the average income incl. benefits for weekends, nightshift, 2children on best tax cat. - less than 35.000€/a - no joke!!
And since we´ll get an Eurofighter - there is no money for proper equipment, means unrelayable radar.
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Hi there ladies and gents,
I am pleased to see that someone has finally broached the subject of ATC pay and conditions. I have worked in a number of different countries (yes as an ATC), and basically those who are working at the major centres and TRACONS are all being well underpaid for our PROFESSIONAL services we provide to the travelling public. Controllers worldwide are a dedicated bunch and always very keen to get the job done at almost any cost and that usually means we take whatever we are offered, because we might lose our job. They can't afford to fire us enmasse as business community would not tolerate it. Yes I know the yanks tried it and look at the result. They will never tread down that road again, it would be a bigger disaster than before.
It would seem that the yanks are getting a fairly decent wage (in the major centres/Tracons),but elsewhere we are being treated almost as paid slaves.
We are not some type of factory worker who slots round pegs into round holes or whatever. We have a highly responsible and to some extent stressful job that requires us to make quick decisions that have to be right all the time (yes occasionally we do screw up)and in some of the busier places I work can involve up to 30 or more acft at one time. we are a very important part of the travel/aviation industry and the world economy as a whole, and where is our recognition of this. do we get cheap travel-NO do we get other perks of the travel industry NO. I certainly do not see it, and if any of you do then you must either work in HK or living in a dreamworld with fog.
We can lose our licence at the drop of hat, if our next medical turns up a problem and then there goes our income earning potential for the rest of our lives.
Look at what pilots earn, and they have the responsibility for just one airplane. Where is the equivalent salary for ATCs (especially in busy centres), where is the danger/risk money and the extra for potential loss of licence, etc.
I feel we ATC's are all very special people who have the ability to do this job. The majority of the population 99% dont have what it takes to do this; meaning there are not enough of us to do this job at present and the Air Navigation Service providors/employers are not going to advertise this fact as that would be next best thing to suicide for them. Scot may want to correct here but I believe that the US is about 2000-3000 short and ditto for Europe/UK not to mention the rest of the world.
We are worth a lot more than what a lot of us are being paid, and the ANS employers know that but will not acknowledge that because they know that it will screw up their budgets and affect their bonuses.
In addition, thier is too much differences in the hours that ATC's work worldwide. I believe that ICAO should include mandatory hours that ATC's work worldwide, smiliar to those that pilots follow. This should be something along the lines of the UK and be a minimum to stop abuse of hours of work and thereby having a minmum effect on the safety of the operation. This is not the sort of thing that companies like Serco, PPP, Airservices Australia or others would like, but they have to understand that we are not your normal everyday type or worker.
Enough of my rantings for now, but I would be interested to hear the views of others on this.
All for now.
I am pleased to see that someone has finally broached the subject of ATC pay and conditions. I have worked in a number of different countries (yes as an ATC), and basically those who are working at the major centres and TRACONS are all being well underpaid for our PROFESSIONAL services we provide to the travelling public. Controllers worldwide are a dedicated bunch and always very keen to get the job done at almost any cost and that usually means we take whatever we are offered, because we might lose our job. They can't afford to fire us enmasse as business community would not tolerate it. Yes I know the yanks tried it and look at the result. They will never tread down that road again, it would be a bigger disaster than before.
It would seem that the yanks are getting a fairly decent wage (in the major centres/Tracons),but elsewhere we are being treated almost as paid slaves.
We are not some type of factory worker who slots round pegs into round holes or whatever. We have a highly responsible and to some extent stressful job that requires us to make quick decisions that have to be right all the time (yes occasionally we do screw up)and in some of the busier places I work can involve up to 30 or more acft at one time. we are a very important part of the travel/aviation industry and the world economy as a whole, and where is our recognition of this. do we get cheap travel-NO do we get other perks of the travel industry NO. I certainly do not see it, and if any of you do then you must either work in HK or living in a dreamworld with fog.
We can lose our licence at the drop of hat, if our next medical turns up a problem and then there goes our income earning potential for the rest of our lives.
Look at what pilots earn, and they have the responsibility for just one airplane. Where is the equivalent salary for ATCs (especially in busy centres), where is the danger/risk money and the extra for potential loss of licence, etc.
I feel we ATC's are all very special people who have the ability to do this job. The majority of the population 99% dont have what it takes to do this; meaning there are not enough of us to do this job at present and the Air Navigation Service providors/employers are not going to advertise this fact as that would be next best thing to suicide for them. Scot may want to correct here but I believe that the US is about 2000-3000 short and ditto for Europe/UK not to mention the rest of the world.
We are worth a lot more than what a lot of us are being paid, and the ANS employers know that but will not acknowledge that because they know that it will screw up their budgets and affect their bonuses.
In addition, thier is too much differences in the hours that ATC's work worldwide. I believe that ICAO should include mandatory hours that ATC's work worldwide, smiliar to those that pilots follow. This should be something along the lines of the UK and be a minimum to stop abuse of hours of work and thereby having a minmum effect on the safety of the operation. This is not the sort of thing that companies like Serco, PPP, Airservices Australia or others would like, but they have to understand that we are not your normal everyday type or worker.
Enough of my rantings for now, but I would be interested to hear the views of others on this.
All for now.
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Tweety......................
"Paid slaves"??
Why don't you take your head from out of your a*** and have a look at the REAL WORLD.
Want to earn a Pilots salary - then become a pilot!
As a matter of FACT, most pilots earn LESS than ATCO's.
Take a look in the back of New Scientist or the Times Appointments supplement. Ask your GP what they are earning... I can tell you it is less than ATCO's of simmilar experience.
Then there is the subject of conditions, ask someone that works in the real world how much holiday they get and then tell them what you get, then if you tell them that you have a "leave book" where you can actually book your leave....they probably won't beleive you.
SO STOP WHINGEING AND GET A LIFE!!!!!!!
"Paid slaves"??
Why don't you take your head from out of your a*** and have a look at the REAL WORLD.
Want to earn a Pilots salary - then become a pilot!
As a matter of FACT, most pilots earn LESS than ATCO's.
Take a look in the back of New Scientist or the Times Appointments supplement. Ask your GP what they are earning... I can tell you it is less than ATCO's of simmilar experience.
Then there is the subject of conditions, ask someone that works in the real world how much holiday they get and then tell them what you get, then if you tell them that you have a "leave book" where you can actually book your leave....they probably won't beleive you.
SO STOP WHINGEING AND GET A LIFE!!!!!!!
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Applycarbheat
Oooooh, looks like someone's cage has been rattled.
I always find that someone who has to turn to insults has already lost the argument.
I don't believe in comparing one job's conditions and pay with another. However, I do feel ATCOs in the UK, particularly at the busier airfields and all three centres, are constantly being pushed harder and harder to the point where something is going to snap. We are undervalued; a recent article in the Independent put ATCOs at the bottom of a list which compared job responsibility and stress/pressure with the level of remuneration.
If people are going to insist on comparing jobs, consider this; my partner is a BA long haul Purser out of LHR. In the job for 15 years, her monthly take home is constantly greater than mine, an ATCO II for 15 years with NATS.
I don't begrudge anyone or any other profession what they get.
However, there is a gross imbalance which has left ATCOs at a severe financial disadvantage, and this comes at a time when we are having to work harder than ever whilst also saying our fond farewells to the old management and their lies & deceipt.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: 160to4DME ]
Oooooh, looks like someone's cage has been rattled.
I always find that someone who has to turn to insults has already lost the argument.
I don't believe in comparing one job's conditions and pay with another. However, I do feel ATCOs in the UK, particularly at the busier airfields and all three centres, are constantly being pushed harder and harder to the point where something is going to snap. We are undervalued; a recent article in the Independent put ATCOs at the bottom of a list which compared job responsibility and stress/pressure with the level of remuneration.
If people are going to insist on comparing jobs, consider this; my partner is a BA long haul Purser out of LHR. In the job for 15 years, her monthly take home is constantly greater than mine, an ATCO II for 15 years with NATS.
I don't begrudge anyone or any other profession what they get.
However, there is a gross imbalance which has left ATCOs at a severe financial disadvantage, and this comes at a time when we are having to work harder than ever whilst also saying our fond farewells to the old management and their lies & deceipt.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: 160to4DME ]
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160to4DME.......................
I was not intending to insult "Tweety", just making a point rather more strongly than I normally would.
You are of course right, there are imbalances and ATCO's are being pushed harder and harder, not a nice position to be in. All the ATCO's at LATCC earn every penny they get. In fact I agree with everything in your post. It's a shame that "tweety's" post does such a dis-service to most hard working ATCO's by making them look like
greedy and envious Leeches, which of course they are not.
Regards
ACH
I was not intending to insult "Tweety", just making a point rather more strongly than I normally would.
You are of course right, there are imbalances and ATCO's are being pushed harder and harder, not a nice position to be in. All the ATCO's at LATCC earn every penny they get. In fact I agree with everything in your post. It's a shame that "tweety's" post does such a dis-service to most hard working ATCO's by making them look like
greedy and envious Leeches, which of course they are not.
Regards
ACH
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That's more like it ....finally we seem to have the pot close to a simmer ...tks to all that have contributed...
This Pilot vs ATC topic is a much talked about issue ...one that rears it's "ugly" head ever so often ...
Yes I suppose that like anything any othe profession, if you want the "green grass" on the other side of the fence ..then go to that side ....fact !!!
However, herewith a few things that don't quite tally for me ...
1) the world over there is the strictest of measures protecting our "pilot (clients)" iro. duty times and the like ....
2)They are as a rule better paid on a direct one on one experience comparison basis..
I agree that when the wheels start coming off, and you're in charge of a multi million $$ plane with 300 odd souls in the back then that's where the investment starts paying off big dividends ...also preventing the wheels coming off in the first place ...is also part and parcel a justification of the big bucks ....but as someone pointed out there just seems like so much more that an ATC has to watch /concentrate on during an average 7-8 hour shift ...compared to the fairly "relaxed" day to day tasks that our friends/colleages have in the cockpit offices during a similar time span ...I would like to thing that as a ATC witha couple of years under the belt / a novice pilot and someone that has flown in many a jumpseat ...I am making a calculated / FAIR / un-biased comparison ...
This all partly due to the fact that the pilots unions are far more international and have far more clout than ATC has ever had ..
In regard to outright comparisons of ATC salaries worldwide ...there is the all important ingredient of varying living expenses (PPP-no not the NATS saga, but each country's own Purchasing Power Parity) that has to taken into account ....
Second last point ....I am sad to say there are too many ATC's running around in this world that all too easily subscibe to the " I am a professional, and therefore demand the perks that go along with it" philosophy ....but they don't come near to be being a professional in the true sense of the word ...be it in their dress, conduct or simply how they perform their daily tasks ...in fact I would go so far as too say that some are an embarrasment to the word "professional" ...In this day and age ...we have forgotten that all about business ...the days of subsidised / tax payer ATC /airlines are long gone ...the person on the other side of the headset/telephone is OUR CLIENTS ...they don't always warrant it ....just like we all are not perfect customers in any business ...but they deserve the best ...
Sorry but I just had to get hat off my chest ...
It would be nice to see this thread continue ....just for the working conditions, if anything, and with the salaries thrown in here and there for some extra spice, as I am sure we all could gain valuable information that could possibly lead to the worldwide regulation of ATC working conditions
Enough said ...
This Pilot vs ATC topic is a much talked about issue ...one that rears it's "ugly" head ever so often ...
Yes I suppose that like anything any othe profession, if you want the "green grass" on the other side of the fence ..then go to that side ....fact !!!
However, herewith a few things that don't quite tally for me ...
1) the world over there is the strictest of measures protecting our "pilot (clients)" iro. duty times and the like ....
2)They are as a rule better paid on a direct one on one experience comparison basis..
I agree that when the wheels start coming off, and you're in charge of a multi million $$ plane with 300 odd souls in the back then that's where the investment starts paying off big dividends ...also preventing the wheels coming off in the first place ...is also part and parcel a justification of the big bucks ....but as someone pointed out there just seems like so much more that an ATC has to watch /concentrate on during an average 7-8 hour shift ...compared to the fairly "relaxed" day to day tasks that our friends/colleages have in the cockpit offices during a similar time span ...I would like to thing that as a ATC witha couple of years under the belt / a novice pilot and someone that has flown in many a jumpseat ...I am making a calculated / FAIR / un-biased comparison ...
This all partly due to the fact that the pilots unions are far more international and have far more clout than ATC has ever had ..
In regard to outright comparisons of ATC salaries worldwide ...there is the all important ingredient of varying living expenses (PPP-no not the NATS saga, but each country's own Purchasing Power Parity) that has to taken into account ....
Second last point ....I am sad to say there are too many ATC's running around in this world that all too easily subscibe to the " I am a professional, and therefore demand the perks that go along with it" philosophy ....but they don't come near to be being a professional in the true sense of the word ...be it in their dress, conduct or simply how they perform their daily tasks ...in fact I would go so far as too say that some are an embarrasment to the word "professional" ...In this day and age ...we have forgotten that all about business ...the days of subsidised / tax payer ATC /airlines are long gone ...the person on the other side of the headset/telephone is OUR CLIENTS ...they don't always warrant it ....just like we all are not perfect customers in any business ...but they deserve the best ...
Sorry but I just had to get hat off my chest ...
It would be nice to see this thread continue ....just for the working conditions, if anything, and with the salaries thrown in here and there for some extra spice, as I am sure we all could gain valuable information that could possibly lead to the worldwide regulation of ATC working conditions
Enough said ...
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Apply, you say you were not intending to insult, but tell tweety to "get a life" sounds pretty insulting to me. You say tweetys post does "a dis-service to most hard working atcos" when youre posts do us all a great diservice. Those of us who are dedicated and profesional, will contine to push for our due recognition. Having done economics, one of the prime fundamentals is SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Atcos are much in demand and very short in supply. Suggest you get out of the right side of bed tomorrow!!!
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Howdy;
Security is one of those things that is NOT negotiable here in the US. Training is another one ( we seem good at getting around that though <G> ). I don't think that we are ever going to see the security requirement change. I think that DOD alone would ensure that. Not to mention the Dept. of Justice. There are of course openings in our contract towers which I am sure that you don't have to have a security clearance for, but they don't pay very well since we get paid by the plane as it were...
regards
Security is one of those things that is NOT negotiable here in the US. Training is another one ( we seem good at getting around that though <G> ). I don't think that we are ever going to see the security requirement change. I think that DOD alone would ensure that. Not to mention the Dept. of Justice. There are of course openings in our contract towers which I am sure that you don't have to have a security clearance for, but they don't pay very well since we get paid by the plane as it were...
regards
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For the gent who has a very high regard of the ATC profession... I am VERY happy that you do hold our profession so highly. However, there are a lot of us who do begin to believe our own press <G>.
We are indeed in a stressfull occupation that does take a modecum of aviation knowledge and a special skill to be able to see traffic and be able to do something about it. There are probably at least 60% of the population who try out for the job who do not have either the apptitude (has nothing to do about smarts) or the personallity for the job. <shrug> That's just the breaks.
As to the pilot issue. Most pilots do NOT get paid what we get paid. That is a fact. Now most of the mainline pilots do make more than we do. But along with that goes being away from home and family most of the time. Having to fly in conditions that "I" am not willing to fly in and always be under the same demand that we are to keep the plane moving. In the overall scheme of things though, when things go bad, we go home at the end of the day. Some of them do not...
Do we deserve a good living wage? You bet we do, and at least in the US. Most facilities now get this. Yes, some don't get what we would have liked them to get, but there are always those who believe that they didn't get what they deserve compared to another place. Just look at what pilots say about wages of the "OTHER" aircarriers <G>. We humans ALWAYS want more or what the other person is getting.
As to the staffing issue. We could always use more. But we do have enough to get the job done. That doesn't include getting leave when you want it, or getting time off for training. We need more folks to be able to do that. We also don't have enough to be able to open more sectors that we want to establish at new facilities and also for the chokepoint areas where we need to do some additional sector building. Not to mention adding positions in new towers. Where ever you have an employer, you will have someone who is going to try to get by with the bare minimum of folks...
Enough rambling from me....
We are indeed in a stressfull occupation that does take a modecum of aviation knowledge and a special skill to be able to see traffic and be able to do something about it. There are probably at least 60% of the population who try out for the job who do not have either the apptitude (has nothing to do about smarts) or the personallity for the job. <shrug> That's just the breaks.
As to the pilot issue. Most pilots do NOT get paid what we get paid. That is a fact. Now most of the mainline pilots do make more than we do. But along with that goes being away from home and family most of the time. Having to fly in conditions that "I" am not willing to fly in and always be under the same demand that we are to keep the plane moving. In the overall scheme of things though, when things go bad, we go home at the end of the day. Some of them do not...
Do we deserve a good living wage? You bet we do, and at least in the US. Most facilities now get this. Yes, some don't get what we would have liked them to get, but there are always those who believe that they didn't get what they deserve compared to another place. Just look at what pilots say about wages of the "OTHER" aircarriers <G>. We humans ALWAYS want more or what the other person is getting.
As to the staffing issue. We could always use more. But we do have enough to get the job done. That doesn't include getting leave when you want it, or getting time off for training. We need more folks to be able to do that. We also don't have enough to be able to open more sectors that we want to establish at new facilities and also for the chokepoint areas where we need to do some additional sector building. Not to mention adding positions in new towers. Where ever you have an employer, you will have someone who is going to try to get by with the bare minimum of folks...
Enough rambling from me....
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Big Nose 1 (having done economics)
"Due recognition" ????????
What are you talking about
We get an above average holiday entitlement, plenty of breaks during working hours, assisted flying for those that want it and we are paid well.
What else do you want ??????
"Due recognition" ????????
What are you talking about
We get an above average holiday entitlement, plenty of breaks during working hours, assisted flying for those that want it and we are paid well.
What else do you want ??????
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Its true that most “main line ATCOs” in the 1st world do get a fair wage. In many places this is only due to the unions and strikes of the past.
The FAA did get away with sacking 11 000 (?) ATCOs once. I suspect that strike did do a lot to improve the conditions for the ATCOs that didn’t get sacked and the ones that came after.
There are a lot of places where ATCOs still pays dirt.
Every country is unique and most ATCOs can only speak for themselves.
To make comparisons with any one profession is not realistic, so leave the drivers’ pay out of this. To make a comparison with the national average income of your country does put the ATCOs pay more in perspective.
However, there are a lot of other conditions that needs improvement.
To name a few: hours, rest periods, rest facilities, counselling after trauma, recuperation rest, remuneration for training, refreshments in the work place, license insurance and (often neglegted) management training. And yes the leave is not bad, provided you can actually take it.
In many places the ideas are good, but it is still in its infancy. The Swiss for instance has a compulsory “recuperation” (de-tox) week every year that ATCOs must take, at the expense of the employer. (But then again, the Swiss do sit on a lot of money that belongs to other people)
In many places ATC employers refuse to even provide rest facilities for night shifts and ATCOs are expected to go through a full 10 hour night on the “normal” (80/20 work/rest) shift structure. Their argument being “you knew you had a full night ahead and you had the whole day to sleep for it”. Completely disregarding circadian rhythms etc. I have seen many a crooked vector and heard many a wrong RWY issued by 5 a.m. Ask American Airlines (?) how their DC10 en route to Frankfurt landed in Brussels unintentionally. It was 5 a.m. in the crew’s hometown.
ATC is a relatively new career and a lot is still to be learned about it and how to manage it. When did ATC start as a “control service” anyway? I think in the USA only as recent as 1968 after a metal shower over NY. (TWA DC8 & DC7)(?). Before that it was only sort of an “information service”. The newbies of today is only really the 3rd or 4th generation in the occupation.
As I have said before: Only Supply and Demand can change what we earn. And the Supply can’t really move around to get the price up. A bit more would be nice, but I can still feed my family on an ATC pay. The pay is not the problem, the conditions are.
Applycarbheat, who gets the “assisted flying” bit. Where’s mine?
Strenth-5, what is your interest in the subject anyway. Your listed yourself as an “Aviation Consultant”?
Tweety has a point with the “afraid to lose our job” bit. I can name many ATCOs that would rather not be here anymore. Due to inability to do any other job and get the same money they still stick around without much commitment or enthusiasm for the job left. Just waiting and praying of retirement day.
ATC should be short term, 15 to 20 year, career with full pension(isn’t that almost the terms with the FAA? 25 years and you can walk or 20 years at age 50 or something like that anyway). Only keep the ones you want as managers, but send them to Management School in the meantime.
Skytalkert
The FAA did get away with sacking 11 000 (?) ATCOs once. I suspect that strike did do a lot to improve the conditions for the ATCOs that didn’t get sacked and the ones that came after.
There are a lot of places where ATCOs still pays dirt.
Every country is unique and most ATCOs can only speak for themselves.
To make comparisons with any one profession is not realistic, so leave the drivers’ pay out of this. To make a comparison with the national average income of your country does put the ATCOs pay more in perspective.
However, there are a lot of other conditions that needs improvement.
To name a few: hours, rest periods, rest facilities, counselling after trauma, recuperation rest, remuneration for training, refreshments in the work place, license insurance and (often neglegted) management training. And yes the leave is not bad, provided you can actually take it.
In many places the ideas are good, but it is still in its infancy. The Swiss for instance has a compulsory “recuperation” (de-tox) week every year that ATCOs must take, at the expense of the employer. (But then again, the Swiss do sit on a lot of money that belongs to other people)
In many places ATC employers refuse to even provide rest facilities for night shifts and ATCOs are expected to go through a full 10 hour night on the “normal” (80/20 work/rest) shift structure. Their argument being “you knew you had a full night ahead and you had the whole day to sleep for it”. Completely disregarding circadian rhythms etc. I have seen many a crooked vector and heard many a wrong RWY issued by 5 a.m. Ask American Airlines (?) how their DC10 en route to Frankfurt landed in Brussels unintentionally. It was 5 a.m. in the crew’s hometown.
ATC is a relatively new career and a lot is still to be learned about it and how to manage it. When did ATC start as a “control service” anyway? I think in the USA only as recent as 1968 after a metal shower over NY. (TWA DC8 & DC7)(?). Before that it was only sort of an “information service”. The newbies of today is only really the 3rd or 4th generation in the occupation.
As I have said before: Only Supply and Demand can change what we earn. And the Supply can’t really move around to get the price up. A bit more would be nice, but I can still feed my family on an ATC pay. The pay is not the problem, the conditions are.
Applycarbheat, who gets the “assisted flying” bit. Where’s mine?
Strenth-5, what is your interest in the subject anyway. Your listed yourself as an “Aviation Consultant”?
Tweety has a point with the “afraid to lose our job” bit. I can name many ATCOs that would rather not be here anymore. Due to inability to do any other job and get the same money they still stick around without much commitment or enthusiasm for the job left. Just waiting and praying of retirement day.
ATC should be short term, 15 to 20 year, career with full pension(isn’t that almost the terms with the FAA? 25 years and you can walk or 20 years at age 50 or something like that anyway). Only keep the ones you want as managers, but send them to Management School in the meantime.
Skytalkert
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Skytalkert;
In the US the ATC system started in the mid 30's. The 60's that you talk about is when we got radar at a lot more facilities and enroute...
As to the retirement, yes we are elligible to retire after 20 years age 50 or 25 years on the boards any age. We are also forced off the boards (and retired if there is no desk job around) at age 56.
As for management... Most of ours now are the folks who did their one year of controlling and then moved around and up through the staff offices. There are also those who screw up and move up. That said, we do have some good eggs out there, but most of them have completely lost touch with reality if they indeed ever had it...
regards
In the US the ATC system started in the mid 30's. The 60's that you talk about is when we got radar at a lot more facilities and enroute...
As to the retirement, yes we are elligible to retire after 20 years age 50 or 25 years on the boards any age. We are also forced off the boards (and retired if there is no desk job around) at age 56.
As for management... Most of ours now are the folks who did their one year of controlling and then moved around and up through the staff offices. There are also those who screw up and move up. That said, we do have some good eggs out there, but most of them have completely lost touch with reality if they indeed ever had it...
regards
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Hi to all & sundry
Skytalkert...
My interest is simply: the interests of ATC's worldwide as one ATCO to another ...
Secondly, as stated before when this thread was started, I read the pilots debate of the same topic and thought it would be a worthy & interesting thread to have on the ATC side ...nothing more and nothing less ...
In regard "Aviation Consultant" ...you surely don't expect me to provide my staff number and full details contact details do you ....no one else does ....
Besides, Skytalkert it is also because of the very points you have now raised, that I feel ATC falls well behind on the ATC vs Pilot issue....
Scott ...point taken about a lot of pilots earning less than ATC's ...but my comparison was iro Airline pilots, and like Skytalkert
has just mentioned ..the Interantional basic service condition legislation or lack thereof ....take loss of licence insurance, as an example ....a lot of companies will tell you that the premium is higher than that of a pilot ....risk of suicide or som e cock-and-bull story...although there have been few ATC's worldwide that have ever gone that route ....it all boils down to no International body with "spunk" that looks after ATC interests ...if there was ..guys like Skytalkert would'nt have so many points to list ... and many of our colleages worldwide would'nt have to work under the ****ty conditions they do at present ...
And no I am not trying to start a world wide union for ATC ...although maybe I should ..mmmmmm???....just kidding ....
And contary to Scott's views ...if I had to have it all over ...I for one would have pursued my flying career rather than my ATC one with more vigour ...although I am quite content with the decision I made ...talk about contradicting oneself ....
Come on guys lets stick to the original topic of discussion ....and quite the personal attacks ....pass the word around ...lets see what we come up with ...
Skytalkert...
My interest is simply: the interests of ATC's worldwide as one ATCO to another ...
Secondly, as stated before when this thread was started, I read the pilots debate of the same topic and thought it would be a worthy & interesting thread to have on the ATC side ...nothing more and nothing less ...
In regard "Aviation Consultant" ...you surely don't expect me to provide my staff number and full details contact details do you ....no one else does ....
Besides, Skytalkert it is also because of the very points you have now raised, that I feel ATC falls well behind on the ATC vs Pilot issue....
Scott ...point taken about a lot of pilots earning less than ATC's ...but my comparison was iro Airline pilots, and like Skytalkert
has just mentioned ..the Interantional basic service condition legislation or lack thereof ....take loss of licence insurance, as an example ....a lot of companies will tell you that the premium is higher than that of a pilot ....risk of suicide or som e cock-and-bull story...although there have been few ATC's worldwide that have ever gone that route ....it all boils down to no International body with "spunk" that looks after ATC interests ...if there was ..guys like Skytalkert would'nt have so many points to list ... and many of our colleages worldwide would'nt have to work under the ****ty conditions they do at present ...
And no I am not trying to start a world wide union for ATC ...although maybe I should ..mmmmmm???....just kidding ....
And contary to Scott's views ...if I had to have it all over ...I for one would have pursued my flying career rather than my ATC one with more vigour ...although I am quite content with the decision I made ...talk about contradicting oneself ....
Come on guys lets stick to the original topic of discussion ....and quite the personal attacks ....pass the word around ...lets see what we come up with ...