Air Ground / FISO Service(s)
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Air Ground / FISO Service(s)
When I am receiving an Air Ground radio service from an airfield, I realise that they are only advisory service such as telling me what traffic they have about their local area etc, but can they actually ask me to report passing somewhere or is that only allowed from a FISO / ATC Service.
If it is only a FISO service, can an AG tell you to report somewhere on behalf of another agency, such as for a hand over?
Any answers are appreciated.
If it is only a FISO service, can an AG tell you to report somewhere on behalf of another agency, such as for a hand over?
Any answers are appreciated.
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The ANO says you may not enter the ATZ of an aerodrome when active without the permission of the owner or something like that. The A/G operator is working on behalf of the airfield owner, so I think he is indeed allowed to refuse you permission to enter. You'd be a bit silly to want to without permission if he's tried to refuse you, wouldn't you?
Not sure about your first question. The only parallel I can see is they CAN tell you to squawk on behalf of another agency. E.g. An airways clearance: "London instructs G-XXXX to remain clear of CAS, squawk YYYY and contact 123.45".
Can't see why anyone would object to being told to report somewhere just because it was and A/G giving the instruction.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
Not sure about your first question. The only parallel I can see is they CAN tell you to squawk on behalf of another agency. E.g. An airways clearance: "London instructs G-XXXX to remain clear of CAS, squawk YYYY and contact 123.45".
Can't see why anyone would object to being told to report somewhere just because it was and A/G giving the instruction.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
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Also, with regard to being asked to "report passing"....
Even an ATC unit can only request you to report passing a given point, unless you are inside controlled airspace, in which case it becomes mandatory.
I agree with the comments above, though; why would you choose not report a given point when requested? Presumably you have chosen to work that agency, whether it be A/G, AFISO or ATC. There will be a reason for the request!
Even an ATC unit can only request you to report passing a given point, unless you are inside controlled airspace, in which case it becomes mandatory.
I agree with the comments above, though; why would you choose not report a given point when requested? Presumably you have chosen to work that agency, whether it be A/G, AFISO or ATC. There will be a reason for the request!
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eyeinthesky is wrong.
A/G operators and FISO's are NOT allowed to refuse permission to enter an ATZ. If a FISO thinks it is unsafe for you enter ie. at Duxford if there is 3 Spitfires doing a display the FISO will something along the lines as "G-IT air display in prgress in the Duxford overhead, I will call you back when complete". An A/G certainly cant refuse permission to enter an ATZ, only an ATC unit can refuse you permission to enther.
I dont have my manuals to hand so cant quote the relevent text.
A/G operators and FISO's are NOT allowed to refuse permission to enter an ATZ. If a FISO thinks it is unsafe for you enter ie. at Duxford if there is 3 Spitfires doing a display the FISO will something along the lines as "G-IT air display in prgress in the Duxford overhead, I will call you back when complete". An A/G certainly cant refuse permission to enter an ATZ, only an ATC unit can refuse you permission to enther.
I dont have my manuals to hand so cant quote the relevent text.
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Land at your discretion:
I would be very interested if you can dig out your manuals or say what they are, as they seem to be at odds with the ANO (which I also do not have to hand!!)
Report Clear:
You have a couple of threads running on the subject of A/G or AFISO privileges or practises. Are you on some sort of mission? By the way, I have long believed that A/G or AFISOs stepping outside the remit of their licence is a disaster waiting to happen, but they do it all the time. I even heard an AFISO this morning giving someone joining instructions in the terms of 'Turn left now, descend to xx, you are number 2 to yy.etc'. All of it illegal and confusing for others who suddenly wonder who is responsible for their position in the circuit. In today's litigious society I wonder what the story would be if two pranged after this sort of service.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
I would be very interested if you can dig out your manuals or say what they are, as they seem to be at odds with the ANO (which I also do not have to hand!!)
Report Clear:
You have a couple of threads running on the subject of A/G or AFISO privileges or practises. Are you on some sort of mission? By the way, I have long believed that A/G or AFISOs stepping outside the remit of their licence is a disaster waiting to happen, but they do it all the time. I even heard an AFISO this morning giving someone joining instructions in the terms of 'Turn left now, descend to xx, you are number 2 to yy.etc'. All of it illegal and confusing for others who suddenly wonder who is responsible for their position in the circuit. In today's litigious society I wonder what the story would be if two pranged after this sort of service.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
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Interestingly, this came up once at an App Validation board at LF.
Can you take an aircraft through LK's ATZ without prior co-ordination?
NO replied the trainee. OH YES replied the SRG man.
Something to do with the fact that LK are FISO's and LF are obviously ATCO's. Still, made the LCE's run for the rule books!!!!
However, that is the law. In reality, if you then had a nasty you would still be in the pooh as it isn't the cleverest thing to do!!!!
(Not sure where that is written though)
[This message has been edited by Bright-Ling (edited 24 June 2001).]
Can you take an aircraft through LK's ATZ without prior co-ordination?
NO replied the trainee. OH YES replied the SRG man.
Something to do with the fact that LK are FISO's and LF are obviously ATCO's. Still, made the LCE's run for the rule books!!!!
However, that is the law. In reality, if you then had a nasty you would still be in the pooh as it isn't the cleverest thing to do!!!!
(Not sure where that is written though)
[This message has been edited by Bright-Ling (edited 24 June 2001).]
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I refer you to my previous post. I have recently investigated this issue with Directorate of Airspace Policy regarding the Denham ATZ. Rule 39 of the ANO refers and it is quite specific. However, having discussed the issue with the Denham aerodrome manager, she recollects a similar conversation to that highlighted in Bright Ling's post.
over to you, SRG
Fly Safely...........
[This message has been edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO (edited 24 June 2001).]
over to you, SRG
Fly Safely...........
[This message has been edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO (edited 24 June 2001).]
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Hi eyeinthesky.
The Manual of Flight Informations Services (basically a FISO's version of MATS pt1) CAP410 pt B, page 22 quotes
"FISOs are not permitted to refuse entry into the ATZ when requested by a pilot"
" From the information provided by the FISO, the pilot will determine if it safe to land, takeoff or transit the ATZ"
The Manual of Flight Informations Services (basically a FISO's version of MATS pt1) CAP410 pt B, page 22 quotes
"FISOs are not permitted to refuse entry into the ATZ when requested by a pilot"
" From the information provided by the FISO, the pilot will determine if it safe to land, takeoff or transit the ATZ"
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The Rules of the Air Regs 1996 are available online at www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19961393_en_2.htm
My reading of rule 39 suggests to me that in order to fly within an ATZ manned by A/G or FISO one must first obtain from the aerodrome's A/G or FISO information to enable the flight to be conducted with safety.
My understanding is that such units can not explicitly deny permission to enter their ATZ, but unless they pass you the relevent aerodrome info then you are not able to comply with the rule 39 and therefore can not enter the ATZ. What constitutes the 'relevent aerodrome info' I'm not entirely sure, but I've been happy enough to know the runway in use, the QFE, and any traffic within the ATZ.
On the other issue, I've regarded an 'instruction' to report somewhere from an A/G or FISO as a request for info, not an instruction which applies to the conduct of a flight, and as such am happy to provide that info.
On a point raised in a previous post, my understanding is that only ATCO's and FISO's can relay clearances on behalf of another ATC unit. A/G operators can not.
Not an expert and happy to be corrected in any of the above.
My reading of rule 39 suggests to me that in order to fly within an ATZ manned by A/G or FISO one must first obtain from the aerodrome's A/G or FISO information to enable the flight to be conducted with safety.
My understanding is that such units can not explicitly deny permission to enter their ATZ, but unless they pass you the relevent aerodrome info then you are not able to comply with the rule 39 and therefore can not enter the ATZ. What constitutes the 'relevent aerodrome info' I'm not entirely sure, but I've been happy enough to know the runway in use, the QFE, and any traffic within the ATZ.
On the other issue, I've regarded an 'instruction' to report somewhere from an A/G or FISO as a request for info, not an instruction which applies to the conduct of a flight, and as such am happy to provide that info.
On a point raised in a previous post, my understanding is that only ATCO's and FISO's can relay clearances on behalf of another ATC unit. A/G operators can not.
Not an expert and happy to be corrected in any of the above.
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Hi, g-oose
Your last point on A/G relaying ATC clearances is not correct - i think
I think im correct in saying that an AG operator can relay atc clearances including airways clearances as long as they state who is actually issuing the clearance.
But i may be wrong
Ta
Your last point on A/G relaying ATC clearances is not correct - i think
I think im correct in saying that an AG operator can relay atc clearances including airways clearances as long as they state who is actually issuing the clearance.
But i may be wrong
Ta
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Hi Report Clear (or should that be "Report Vacated" ?!),
You are correct. I checked this point with an ATSSD Inspector and an ATC clearance can be relayed by an A/G operator.
You are correct. I checked this point with an ATSSD Inspector and an ATC clearance can be relayed by an A/G operator.
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Spoke to my favourite SRG aerodrome examiner today and his description is as follows:
AFISOs cannot refuse permission to enter an ATZ. (CAP 410B)
Pilots are not allowed to enter an ATZ without the permission of the aerodrome operating authority. (ANO Rule 39)
One question I negelcted to ask was, can an AFISO pass a message on behalf of the operating authority giving/not giving permission for entry of an ATZ?
Confused, where's my Gin & Tonic?
Fly Safely............
AFISOs cannot refuse permission to enter an ATZ. (CAP 410B)
Pilots are not allowed to enter an ATZ without the permission of the aerodrome operating authority. (ANO Rule 39)
One question I negelcted to ask was, can an AFISO pass a message on behalf of the operating authority giving/not giving permission for entry of an ATZ?
Confused, where's my Gin & Tonic?
Fly Safely............
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Thanks guys for the informmation,
I have asked a few people with reference to the "report passing" part to which I get several opinions such as yes you can and NO you certainly cannot as you are not providing a FIS.
If anyoen can shed any light on this further, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
I have asked a few people with reference to the "report passing" part to which I get several opinions such as yes you can and NO you certainly cannot as you are not providing a FIS.
If anyoen can shed any light on this further, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
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ATCO Wannabe, a 'report passing' from an A/G or FISO is in the form of a request, but he/she must be doing it for a reason and I see no reason not to comply, unless by the time you have to 'report passing' whatever you want to be talking to another agency then you should say so.
Whipping Boy's SATCO: Rule 39 doesn't actually say an aerodrome authority can refuse permission to enter an ATZ. A pilot before entering an ATZ must obtain permission from the ATC unit at the aerodrome, or if there is no ATC unit, obtain information from the FIS or A/G information to enable the flight to be conducted safely. I guess if this did not happen then the pilot could be in breach of Article 63, A person shall not recklessley or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein.
Whipping Boy's SATCO: Rule 39 doesn't actually say an aerodrome authority can refuse permission to enter an ATZ. A pilot before entering an ATZ must obtain permission from the ATC unit at the aerodrome, or if there is no ATC unit, obtain information from the FIS or A/G information to enable the flight to be conducted safely. I guess if this did not happen then the pilot could be in breach of Article 63, A person shall not recklessley or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein.
