Ifr Procedural Regulations

[M.85]

Dear ATC fellows,


I have posted in the instructor forum but you must be of an even better help.

I often fly to Greece and Egypt where full procedural approach are made has there is no radar coverage..
From Air LAw,if I come ie from the South (track North)and the outboung leg(of a 45/180 procedure turn for example)is 100deg,I would need to enter the depicted hold at the IAF to get established within 30 degrees of the outbound leg.I understand the depicted hold protects me with an obstacle clearance of 1000ft up to 5nm up to the buffer area where obstacle clearance reduces down to 100ft at the boundary of the buffer protection.

In Africa,where there is mostly no radar for approaches..captains using LNAV intercept the outboung leg of the procedure turn even though the track difference is much greater than 30 degrees..example here a 100 deg difference..

I know LNAV can intercept but is it LEGAL..?? has theres no radar coverage they have no clue what we are doing anyways,,but if cleared for a full approach under radar coverage..would we be sanctionned??wouldnt we have to use the depicted hold at the IAF to join the procedure turn????

It has been bothering me at every approach...y AirLAw explain clearly the need of the max 30dg track difference but doesnt mention the possible difference between LNAV ops or conventional raw data procedures...

Last question how much lateral obstacle clearance does the outbound leg of a procedure turn provide?

Thanks a lot for your help..i need it clear in my head...


Regards,

M.85

[DFC]

My opinion - Yes the procedure requirements say that one must be within 30 degrees to establish on the track and as you correctly point out, the holding procedure does that for you.

It makes no diffference if the procedure is hand flown or flown by the electronic pilot the same requirements apply.

However, having said all that, if the flight is at or above the MSA for the sector that contains the outbound leg then the pilot could manoeuvre the aircraft at that altitude to establish on the outbound track ignoring the 30 deg requirment. The problem with this at many places is that there is not suficient distance or time to complete the descent because the aircraft can be well outbound before fully establishing.

Note that the MSA for the sector can often be higher than the min holding altitude!!

Regards,

DFC

[M.85]

makes sense..thanks a lot...less to worry about..

Safe flying!

M.85

so if i fly to heathrow and cleared for a full approach and the otbound leg is less than the MSA, im expected to join the hold and establish for the outbound leg of the procedure turn..?

M.85

[DFC]

M.85,

Please remember that my above comments were based on terrain clearance and being able to complete the procedure in a stable and unrushed manner.

ATC may have reasons for not permitting aircraft to enter the procedure from outside the 30deg ICAO requirement in order to maintain certain lateral or deemed separations from other traffic.

Heathrow isn't a good example because;

a) The initial leg from the hold requires the aircraft to maintain the minimum holding level (FL equivalent of 7000) and this is well above the MSA (in fact procedurally, one does not descend below MSA until well established on the glide); and

b) in the case of the BNN hold and the 09 approach, the leg from the hold is more than 30 degrees from the inbound holding track.

c) If they were ever operating fully procedurally, the holding times would be such that the option of bypassing the hold would not be available.

Glasgow runway 05 is possibly a better example.

The inbound track from LANAK to GOW places the aircraft outside the 30deg requirement to go straight outbound on 215deg. The MHA is 3000ft as is the initial outbound leg..........however the applicable MSA if one turns left at the VOR to establish outbound is 4000ft...........thus if one maintains 4000ft one can in theory turn left at the VOR and establish outbound in the procedure and when established outbound commence descent.

However, at your initial approach speed and doing say a 45deg intercept of the outbound, you will be quite a way outbound before you can descend.

As BEagle said elsewhere in response to your repeat posting, using LNav in flyby rather than flyover can make things work out better............or if flying manually and don't want to fly over the beacon, treat it like a DME arc intercept at the overhead (just under 1 dme) 1% of groundspeed is a good lead distance for the turn).

Remember however that ATC will ofter prefer an entry via the published hold for separation purposes and airspace limitations when fully procedural.

Regards,

DFC