Why Were We Kept So Stupidly High?
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Why Were We Kept So Stupidly High?
Today when returning to our base at the Midlands from the north, we were told of the plan to be vectored to runway xxx left hand (long way round) by ATC.
No one else around, just us.
ATC kept us FL070 to cross over the extended centerline after which one expects descent to 2500' in order to be level hopefully downwind and start to slow up for base.
We kept the speed up so when descent comes, we would achieve a good ROD.
ATC had to be prompted for descent mid downwind. No real reason just ignorance??? Quiet freq.
Finally cleared to 2500', speedbrake out, 320Kts only to be told to start to slow down.
This kind of thing happens too often.
The point of this posting is this:
Are ATC guys who do this, not switched on enough to know how an airplane descends???
Do they know what the pilot is trying to achieve in an already unhelpful situation?
How he's doing that? Why is the high speed?
I think not. They DO NOT!
I thing ATC should be MADE to fly with crews regularly, if only to be shown approaches which are like the one above. Let them see/hear the crew remarking on a situation 5 miles before it happens. The very remarks he doesn't hear normally. Let them know you CAN'T DESCEND AND SLOW DOWN AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
GIVE US DESCENT IN GOOD TIME TRAFFIC/TERRAIN PERMITTING.
Remarks please, any one else feeling similar?
[This message has been edited by moist (edited 03 September 1999).]
No one else around, just us.
ATC kept us FL070 to cross over the extended centerline after which one expects descent to 2500' in order to be level hopefully downwind and start to slow up for base.
We kept the speed up so when descent comes, we would achieve a good ROD.
ATC had to be prompted for descent mid downwind. No real reason just ignorance??? Quiet freq.
Finally cleared to 2500', speedbrake out, 320Kts only to be told to start to slow down.
This kind of thing happens too often.
The point of this posting is this:
Are ATC guys who do this, not switched on enough to know how an airplane descends???
Do they know what the pilot is trying to achieve in an already unhelpful situation?
How he's doing that? Why is the high speed?
I think not. They DO NOT!
I thing ATC should be MADE to fly with crews regularly, if only to be shown approaches which are like the one above. Let them see/hear the crew remarking on a situation 5 miles before it happens. The very remarks he doesn't hear normally. Let them know you CAN'T DESCEND AND SLOW DOWN AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
GIVE US DESCENT IN GOOD TIME TRAFFIC/TERRAIN PERMITTING.
Remarks please, any one else feeling similar?
[This message has been edited by moist (edited 03 September 1999).]
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OI moist have you offered to take an atc'er flying? HAVE YOU?
I think we pilots should be MADE to sit in a darkened room looking a blips on a screen and trying to work out just how to prevent them all merging into one big blip in the middle.
I fact perhaps some famil on both sides would help prevent just the situation your complaining about.
So if you ve got a gripe then gripe but if you want a serious answer then try and couch it a bit more plesently.
Now I'm off to learn how to spell, perhaps I'll do it while trying to get down from FL80 on a 2 mile final at cvt, and still waiting for london to hand us over to Brum....Now look what I've gone and done, moan,moan , moan thats all we pilots ever do.
I think we pilots should be MADE to sit in a darkened room looking a blips on a screen and trying to work out just how to prevent them all merging into one big blip in the middle.
I fact perhaps some famil on both sides would help prevent just the situation your complaining about.
So if you ve got a gripe then gripe but if you want a serious answer then try and couch it a bit more plesently.
Now I'm off to learn how to spell, perhaps I'll do it while trying to get down from FL80 on a 2 mile final at cvt, and still waiting for london to hand us over to Brum....Now look what I've gone and done, moan,moan , moan thats all we pilots ever do.
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ATC angle: it's a continuing bone of contention that our company is so limited for staff that if we do a Fam trip it's in our own time.
Your companies are our customers and eventually there will be a realisation that a 'proper' fam trip is worthy of a duty day/two. I hope.
Your companies are our customers and eventually there will be a realisation that a 'proper' fam trip is worthy of a duty day/two. I hope.
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moist,
Agree with the general views that there does need to be more liaison between ATC and flight deck and more experience of each other's environment.
But on a technical issue, did you have permission to be above 250Kts below FL100 ? Otherwise those nice men from the CAA might want to have a chat with you
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PPRuNe Radar
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Agree with the general views that there does need to be more liaison between ATC and flight deck and more experience of each other's environment.
But on a technical issue, did you have permission to be above 250Kts below FL100 ? Otherwise those nice men from the CAA might want to have a chat with you
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PPRuNe Radar
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Like myself, many junior abinitio australian controllers have minimal cockpit jumpseat experience. What started as a four-week famil experience for controllers in the past has degraded to a four-day trip prior to any ATC simulator experience, making the whole exercise worthless. This leads to poor aircraft performance knowledge. The Australian airlines seem to be very restrictive with freebie flights, allowing travel on same-day only, which must be an ATC rostered shift! Most ATC would tie in a cockpit ride with a visit to another ATC centre, which most certainly would be on the next day. It's a crazy rule - if any oz crew out there would talk to airline management it would be appreciated.
[This message has been edited by 135 9 (edited 13 September 1999).]
[This message has been edited by 135 9 (edited 13 September 1999).]
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Part of the problem here is the FMC and it's desire to get as economical a descent as possible. In the days of steam driven jets, descent planning seemed to be a knowledge of the 3 times table plus a correction for slowing down - so if I was cruising at 35000ft I'd want 105 miles to get down, and about 4-5 miles to slow down. Simple enough for most pilot's to cope with, but not the most economical descent profile. In the event that conflicting traffic prevented ATC from giving continuous descent, there was plenty of 'slack' to enable the ideal descent path to be recovered quite easily.
Now we sit staring at little TV screens, over-relying on the Flight Management Computer's calculation of best descent path (leave it as late as possible, shut the throttles and plummet towards your destination to be at 1500ft, 8 miles from touchdown doing 170kts, or whatever you amend it to) which leaves NO slack at all - apart from lobbing out the gear that is!
When flying into busy airspace - Daventry sector seems an appropriate example here - it's worth not getting too close to the Vnav (suckers?) profile, and if you are forced to by ATC, if you can, slow right down until further descent is possible - then go for it!
Now we sit staring at little TV screens, over-relying on the Flight Management Computer's calculation of best descent path (leave it as late as possible, shut the throttles and plummet towards your destination to be at 1500ft, 8 miles from touchdown doing 170kts, or whatever you amend it to) which leaves NO slack at all - apart from lobbing out the gear that is!
When flying into busy airspace - Daventry sector seems an appropriate example here - it's worth not getting too close to the Vnav (suckers?) profile, and if you are forced to by ATC, if you can, slow right down until further descent is possible - then go for it!
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135.9 unless things have changed greatly since my glory days with AsA (choke, choke) the restrictions placed on fam trips are instigated by AsA itself and not by the airlines.
For as long as I can remember DCA, CAD, DOT, CAA, AA or whatever they have called themselves over the years, they have been the ones to place as many obstacles as possible in the way of ATC's getting famil rides.
Whenever I go flying, which is quite often these days , I always make an effort to visit the cockpit early in the flight (so that I can get stuck into the free booze afterwards) and I can say that it is never a wasted effort. Occasionally the crew can be less than warm, but so can we all, and I always learn something that is usefull in the job.
For as long as I can remember DCA, CAD, DOT, CAA, AA or whatever they have called themselves over the years, they have been the ones to place as many obstacles as possible in the way of ATC's getting famil rides.
Whenever I go flying, which is quite often these days , I always make an effort to visit the cockpit early in the flight (so that I can get stuck into the free booze afterwards) and I can say that it is never a wasted effort. Occasionally the crew can be less than warm, but so can we all, and I always learn something that is usefull in the job.
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I have had ATC on the flightdeck a long time ago. Very pleasant chap indeed. He was on a famil trip.
I'm all for it.
Please come at any time on any of my trips.
I've also been to LATCC a few times.
I do think these trips should be ROSTERED and not done on days off.
I'm all for starting a campain for the ROSTERING OF ATC PERSONS FOR FAMIL. TRIPS IN AIRLINERS, TWICE A YEAR.
SHALL WE?????
I'm all for it.
Please come at any time on any of my trips.
I've also been to LATCC a few times.
I do think these trips should be ROSTERED and not done on days off.
I'm all for starting a campain for the ROSTERING OF ATC PERSONS FOR FAMIL. TRIPS IN AIRLINERS, TWICE A YEAR.
SHALL WE?????
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* two trips per year compulsary, concur... let's start the campaign (with icao!)
* no farting can be part of the safety brief
* Twodogs, AA mgmnt told me it was the airlines, but I should know better than to trust them.
[This message has been edited by 135 9 (edited 13 September 1999).]
* no farting can be part of the safety brief
* Twodogs, AA mgmnt told me it was the airlines, but I should know better than to trust them.
[This message has been edited by 135 9 (edited 13 September 1999).]
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Hi everyone
Does all this mean that you all think that pilots should be made to visit ATSUs at least twice a year to see the other side of the coin. How many of you can honestly say you've been to even one this year? and which one did you visit?
To the fam flt thing, yes they can be a good idea and informative to both parties but in the past i remember turning up to an 'officially' organised one where the airline themselves had said which flight was available and i was told that the crew were expecting me. Not only were they not expecting me they were line checking so i got to spend the whole flight down the back on the way out.Then on return flight the captains daughter was on the jump seat so again i read the in flight magazine for the duration. Got my duty frees though.
I have been on better ones in the past though and 'boy do you guys like your toys'. Only kidding!
keep smiling
Does all this mean that you all think that pilots should be made to visit ATSUs at least twice a year to see the other side of the coin. How many of you can honestly say you've been to even one this year? and which one did you visit?
To the fam flt thing, yes they can be a good idea and informative to both parties but in the past i remember turning up to an 'officially' organised one where the airline themselves had said which flight was available and i was told that the crew were expecting me. Not only were they not expecting me they were line checking so i got to spend the whole flight down the back on the way out.Then on return flight the captains daughter was on the jump seat so again i read the in flight magazine for the duration. Got my duty frees though.
I have been on better ones in the past though and 'boy do you guys like your toys'. Only kidding!
keep smiling
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Brakes to Park,
XXX Zone ? Who mentioned it took place within a zone ? Anyhow, assuming it was within a Zone, then if it was Class D, 250Kts is the maximum speed below FL100 unless ATC relax it. Classes A, B & C have no limits. Classes E, F & G, there is no discretion for ATC to lift it, it's mandatory unless you have a CAA exemption.
AIC 35/1998 (Yellow 291) tells all. Available on http://www.ais.org.uk
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 08 September 1999).]
XXX Zone ? Who mentioned it took place within a zone ? Anyhow, assuming it was within a Zone, then if it was Class D, 250Kts is the maximum speed below FL100 unless ATC relax it. Classes A, B & C have no limits. Classes E, F & G, there is no discretion for ATC to lift it, it's mandatory unless you have a CAA exemption.
AIC 35/1998 (Yellow 291) tells all. Available on http://www.ais.org.uk
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PPRuNe Radar
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[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 08 September 1999).]
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Risky,
There are different ways to descend, depends what you want to achieve.
If you want to come back to 210kts with speedbrake, you'll descend at a very poor rate. You will turn base leg at the "south coast" eventually.
With high speed you'll get a serious rate at a shorter distance, but, yes you will need room to slow down as well. Base leg can be utilised!!!
I chose the latter.
There are different ways to descend, depends what you want to achieve.
If you want to come back to 210kts with speedbrake, you'll descend at a very poor rate. You will turn base leg at the "south coast" eventually.
With high speed you'll get a serious rate at a shorter distance, but, yes you will need room to slow down as well. Base leg can be utilised!!!
I chose the latter.
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Moist
Sorry but you inferred that ATC kept you level at FL70. In that case whilst stuck in level flight you should bring the speed back (& keep thrust at idle.) I was not suggesting to bring the speed back whilst descending, as jet aircraft will do neither very effectively at the same time.
Sorry but you inferred that ATC kept you level at FL70. In that case whilst stuck in level flight you should bring the speed back (& keep thrust at idle.) I was not suggesting to bring the speed back whilst descending, as jet aircraft will do neither very effectively at the same time.
