NATS Pay and Privatisation
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NATS Pay and Privatisation
I hear that privatisation is to be announced in the next 10 days. When IPMS ballot on the new pay offer, including our non pensionable allowances for LCE and zero for OJTI we should all reject it and vote for industrial action. Lets send a clear message to the Government.
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Journo - privatisation threat has been official for over 5 years since Major attempted (and failed) to do what Thatcher rejected as too difficult. Labour cried foul and we will oppose evermore ... until they thought they might get into Government and promptly renaged on all sorts of personal and party promises.
Our pay complaints have been around for at least 10 years. Only profession I know where they cannot recruit enough staff at the right standard to do the job and our management tell us anyone can do the job and we should compare ourselves with ...... but never finish the sentence.
[This message has been edited by 2 six 4 (edited 11 June 1999).]
Our pay complaints have been around for at least 10 years. Only profession I know where they cannot recruit enough staff at the right standard to do the job and our management tell us anyone can do the job and we should compare ourselves with ...... but never finish the sentence.
[This message has been edited by 2 six 4 (edited 11 June 1999).]
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Privitasitation of ATS service providers ( the new buzz word for ATC)is the new flavor of the decade. Just like deregulation was for airlines 10 years ago.
In ATC throwing money at people in return for (much) harder working conditions will only work for a certain time.
Expecting an independant Regulator to ensure safety standards is like expecting the FAA to regulate Valujet an the like.
In ATC throwing money at people in return for (much) harder working conditions will only work for a certain time.
Expecting an independant Regulator to ensure safety standards is like expecting the FAA to regulate Valujet an the like.
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ATC watcher. Im not talking about throwing money for working harder. We do that anyway because our airspace is getting busier and busier and we don't have the resources to split the airspace quickly enough. Most of us are working up towards the legal max of hours already.
Im talking about getting us properly into aviation skills recognition and using the dreaded "market forces" to actually benefit the ATC staff before the shareholder get their snouts into the trough.
What other profession do you know where professionals earning up to £150,000 pa put themselves, their passengers and their lives under the control of people who are fully qualified, dealing with up to 20 a/c under radar control at any time, and earn less than some of the cabin crew ???
Im talking about getting us properly into aviation skills recognition and using the dreaded "market forces" to actually benefit the ATC staff before the shareholder get their snouts into the trough.
What other profession do you know where professionals earning up to £150,000 pa put themselves, their passengers and their lives under the control of people who are fully qualified, dealing with up to 20 a/c under radar control at any time, and earn less than some of the cabin crew ???
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Where do the cabin crew you know work 2 Six 4 ? Most of the ones I know are on pretty low wages compared to ATC (less than 20K GBP for sure.) A lot of their pay in some carriers is also linked to bar sales, etc, which with the loss of duty free will hit some hard. Mind you, seeing the people they sometimes have to deal with, I don't think I'd do their job even for an ATCO salary.
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in pay negotiation management have been very smart, relying on "Yes" votes from those for whom 3% of alot is alot, outweighing "no" votes from those for whom 3% of bugger-all is bugger-all. When the age grouping of controllers is such that most are middle to bottom of scale maybe we shall see a successful "no" vote.
ps, can you let me know where I can get one of those cabin-crew jobs?
[This message has been edited by bill (edited 14 June 1999).]
[This message has been edited by bill (edited 15 June 1999).]
ps, can you let me know where I can get one of those cabin-crew jobs?
[This message has been edited by bill (edited 14 June 1999).]
[This message has been edited by bill (edited 15 June 1999).]
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Pompi. Have you seen the cars of the nice chaps and chapesses going into the blue wendy house at EGLL ? Puts the new Beatle into perspective.
PPRunE Radar. I appreciate that many of the cabin crew of the major carriers are poorly paid (in basic salary) Presumably this is one of the "benefits" of privatisation that we can look forward to. Recruit new staff on lower paid contracts. Regional pay etc. NATS has done some of this in the past. Almost every non NATS airports pays better salary to newly qualified ATCOs than NATS. Few of them pay as much as a CSD earns with BA.
Nobody is doubting they earn their money - just as few doubt we earn ours. With the announcement of privatisation imminent we are looking at what made our job desireable in the past. We have sacrificed salaries for long term security and good pensions. Seeing them attacked will do little for the stability of your industry. See what the papers say this weekend - or shortly after.
Sold off to the highest bidder by this time next year.
PPRunE Radar. I appreciate that many of the cabin crew of the major carriers are poorly paid (in basic salary) Presumably this is one of the "benefits" of privatisation that we can look forward to. Recruit new staff on lower paid contracts. Regional pay etc. NATS has done some of this in the past. Almost every non NATS airports pays better salary to newly qualified ATCOs than NATS. Few of them pay as much as a CSD earns with BA.
Nobody is doubting they earn their money - just as few doubt we earn ours. With the announcement of privatisation imminent we are looking at what made our job desireable in the past. We have sacrificed salaries for long term security and good pensions. Seeing them attacked will do little for the stability of your industry. See what the papers say this weekend - or shortly after.
Sold off to the highest bidder by this time next year.
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pompi,
a few "flash" cars among several hundred can hardly be considered as indictative of how well a group is being paid.
a better measure is to compare the group with others in the same industry and in our case we lag behind controllers in many other European countries, in both pay and conditions, and as 2 six 4 pointed out, often behind controllers at non-NATS units.
furthermore, privatisation will seek to attack our non-monetary benefits.
[This message has been edited by bill (edited 16 June 1999).]
a few "flash" cars among several hundred can hardly be considered as indictative of how well a group is being paid.
a better measure is to compare the group with others in the same industry and in our case we lag behind controllers in many other European countries, in both pay and conditions, and as 2 six 4 pointed out, often behind controllers at non-NATS units.
furthermore, privatisation will seek to attack our non-monetary benefits.
[This message has been edited by bill (edited 16 June 1999).]
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Oh come on, I'm not suggesting that privitisation is good, or that we don't earn our money, but 55 thousand quid per year (approx), tere are no cabin crew earning that. OK, it's top of the scale, but it's not badly paid - tough, but not badly paid. Lets not compare cars, lets talk numbers.
Labour Party - went back on every promise, they said "Our skies are not for sale". Liars.
Anyone want to buy a soapbox - one careful owner....
Labour Party - went back on every promise, they said "Our skies are not for sale". Liars.
Anyone want to buy a soapbox - one careful owner....
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55.000 pounds sterling gross for end career (if I read you right) is very comparable to salaries in large European states, and that includes Spain for instance.
What privatisation has brought up is :
(Not in order of importance and not all in same country )things like :
reduction in many social benefits, reduction of leave days , mandatory overtime, extended working hours ( from 28 or 32 hours effective p er week to 36 or 38 before overtime starts ) younger, harder management ( the weak controllers must come out ) sectors must to be manned when traffic demand is there (even if start shift is in unsocial hours )and tremedous pressure to raise sector capacities to keep delays down.
Airlines become "stakeholders" before they become "shareholders" ..
Money is the wrong issue my friends...and in my experience Happy relax people do not spend their money and their ego on cars...
What privatisation has brought up is :
(Not in order of importance and not all in same country )things like :
reduction in many social benefits, reduction of leave days , mandatory overtime, extended working hours ( from 28 or 32 hours effective p er week to 36 or 38 before overtime starts ) younger, harder management ( the weak controllers must come out ) sectors must to be manned when traffic demand is there (even if start shift is in unsocial hours )and tremedous pressure to raise sector capacities to keep delays down.
Airlines become "stakeholders" before they become "shareholders" ..
Money is the wrong issue my friends...and in my experience Happy relax people do not spend their money and their ego on cars...
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I think many NATS controllers don't know when they are onto a good thing!!
I am just about to leave the services to join NATS, and I am goig to take a pay rise just to do the college course!!!!!!
Compare the average earnings of a Flt Lt controller with all his tickets and a supervisors ticket and as a DSATCO to a junior NATS ATCO!! Even the NATS pension scheme is miles ahead of the RAF (unless you are an Air Marshall!!!!)
Come on guys, if it is really that bad, sell the BMW Z3's (I know you have them), leave NATS and apply to go somewhere else. Give us poor ex servicemen a chance at the "good life" if there is one!!
The money is still the attractive part of being a civvy controller. I appreciate that more demands are being put on controllers and that non-monetary benefits are being comprimised, but perhaps it is time for some NATS employees to understand what other government sectors have put up with for years, i.e junior doctors and the Armed Services. They are responsible for other peoples lives too....
Lets face it, compared to many other people, NATS is not such a bad deal, even AFTER privatisation!!!
[This message has been edited by Dunx (edited 16 June 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Dunx (edited 16 June 1999).]
I am just about to leave the services to join NATS, and I am goig to take a pay rise just to do the college course!!!!!!
Compare the average earnings of a Flt Lt controller with all his tickets and a supervisors ticket and as a DSATCO to a junior NATS ATCO!! Even the NATS pension scheme is miles ahead of the RAF (unless you are an Air Marshall!!!!)
Come on guys, if it is really that bad, sell the BMW Z3's (I know you have them), leave NATS and apply to go somewhere else. Give us poor ex servicemen a chance at the "good life" if there is one!!
The money is still the attractive part of being a civvy controller. I appreciate that more demands are being put on controllers and that non-monetary benefits are being comprimised, but perhaps it is time for some NATS employees to understand what other government sectors have put up with for years, i.e junior doctors and the Armed Services. They are responsible for other peoples lives too....
Lets face it, compared to many other people, NATS is not such a bad deal, even AFTER privatisation!!!
[This message has been edited by Dunx (edited 16 June 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Dunx (edited 16 June 1999).]
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dunx,
I don`t agree with everything 2six4 says,but I think its you that needs the reality check. I don`t know where your military experience was at, but all your tickets!! (unliscenced as they are) do not compare to multi valid sectors at LATCC, or any other large NATS unit. NATS pension scheme miles ahead of the RAF.......what tosh I can`t retire on a decent pension till 60, unlike you RAF boys who can leave on a very nice deal at 40. Nice cars, yes some have them, including a LATCC LJAO controller driving a Lexus, so don`t go there. After you finish your college course and get posted to LATCC lets see how you feel after your first session on CLN or the West End handling 20-25 aircraft at one time, all climbing or descending, and in conflict with each other. There is no panic button to press when the 3rd aircraft calls....and no army of blue shirts to help, then see if you still think its the "good life". Finally do you really believe that the RAF has been subject to market forces more than NATS in the last 5 years....I hope not!!n
I don`t agree with everything 2six4 says,but I think its you that needs the reality check. I don`t know where your military experience was at, but all your tickets!! (unliscenced as they are) do not compare to multi valid sectors at LATCC, or any other large NATS unit. NATS pension scheme miles ahead of the RAF.......what tosh I can`t retire on a decent pension till 60, unlike you RAF boys who can leave on a very nice deal at 40. Nice cars, yes some have them, including a LATCC LJAO controller driving a Lexus, so don`t go there. After you finish your college course and get posted to LATCC lets see how you feel after your first session on CLN or the West End handling 20-25 aircraft at one time, all climbing or descending, and in conflict with each other. There is no panic button to press when the 3rd aircraft calls....and no army of blue shirts to help, then see if you still think its the "good life". Finally do you really believe that the RAF has been subject to market forces more than NATS in the last 5 years....I hope not!!n
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NATS ATCO boys, I'm not clear why all you folks are worried. It doesn't really matter whether you have a boxter or not (nice turquoise one there this morning) because whoever buys NATS will leave the core business alone and sell off the the rest.
ie. ATCO's safe, Hurn and all the rest should look and see if they contribute to the business bottom line and if they don't they will probably be sold off in the second wave.
I know this sounds a bit harsh, but if I was buying NATS I would ask who makes me money and if they don't get rid of them.
There are not many people who are in the bidding that will look at the long term picture, and when I say long term I mean 10 years.
Having said all that I think that NATS has a lot to offer, but I think that they are going to get a severe shock when they get ppp'd.
Too many civil servant fat cats.
ie. ATCO's safe, Hurn and all the rest should look and see if they contribute to the business bottom line and if they don't they will probably be sold off in the second wave.
I know this sounds a bit harsh, but if I was buying NATS I would ask who makes me money and if they don't get rid of them.
There are not many people who are in the bidding that will look at the long term picture, and when I say long term I mean 10 years.
Having said all that I think that NATS has a lot to offer, but I think that they are going to get a severe shock when they get ppp'd.
Too many civil servant fat cats.
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ATC Watcher,
Salary is maybe comparable to other European States (not sure Spain is the measure of a high income State though !!) but what about compared to Eurocontrol !!
POMPI,
You missed out the bit about them plundering the pension fund surplus as well as selling off everything which does not tangibly earn them buckets of money
I would also say your "long term" definition is optimistic. I'm sure that they'll want their quick hit and be out again in less than 5 years
NATS is also no longer "civil service" and indeed hasn't been for many a year. It is totally funded by you, me, and anyone else who flies as self loading cargo and pays the airline for it. We've also pretty much been pared to the bone with numerous reviews throughout the last decade : Strategic Review, Gemini Consultants, and so on. Each has stripped even more flesh away and it is difficult to see how any more could go without an impact on the service. Sure, the non-core could be done by someone else but at what price ? I also suspect that the buyers would receive as much a shock as NATS might when they get into it. They will find things like charging set by international agreement, working patterns set by UK Legal Statute (SRATCOH or whatever it's called this month) and equipment standards and levels of service again being legal requirements. NATS has seen many people/organisations come in on projects and say how easy this game is and then have to pick up the pieces when it all turns to a bag of worms. I don't think this will be any different.
Discuss
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[This message has been edited by 10W (edited 17 June 1999).]
Salary is maybe comparable to other European States (not sure Spain is the measure of a high income State though !!) but what about compared to Eurocontrol !!
POMPI,
You missed out the bit about them plundering the pension fund surplus as well as selling off everything which does not tangibly earn them buckets of money
I would also say your "long term" definition is optimistic. I'm sure that they'll want their quick hit and be out again in less than 5 years
NATS is also no longer "civil service" and indeed hasn't been for many a year. It is totally funded by you, me, and anyone else who flies as self loading cargo and pays the airline for it. We've also pretty much been pared to the bone with numerous reviews throughout the last decade : Strategic Review, Gemini Consultants, and so on. Each has stripped even more flesh away and it is difficult to see how any more could go without an impact on the service. Sure, the non-core could be done by someone else but at what price ? I also suspect that the buyers would receive as much a shock as NATS might when they get into it. They will find things like charging set by international agreement, working patterns set by UK Legal Statute (SRATCOH or whatever it's called this month) and equipment standards and levels of service again being legal requirements. NATS has seen many people/organisations come in on projects and say how easy this game is and then have to pick up the pieces when it all turns to a bag of worms. I don't think this will be any different.
Discuss
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10 West
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[This message has been edited by 10W (edited 17 June 1999).]
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POMPI. We are worried precisely because we will not be left alone. Why is our pension scheme being valued right at this minute ? What will happen to the surplus that we are trying to add value to our scheme ? Sure those of us with validations will not be out of a job tomorrow. Do you think SERCO will honour our early retirement scheme ? Precisely as you say Hurn and the others will be first hit. But where do your replacements come from to allow you to retire early ? - Hurn. Where is the simulation and development done to allow us to split sectors and cope with the increases in traffic - Hurn. Take the accountant's short term view if you wish.
Mr Chips have you seen what an ATCO 3 earns at the top of their salary scale never mind the start ? Have you seen what a B747 CSD earns - including those nice tax free cash allowances for being stuck in the Seychelles for 4 days at a company hotel ?
Dunx - get your validations not just the licence and tell us, after you fifth busy summer, if you still think it is so easy.
Mr Chips have you seen what an ATCO 3 earns at the top of their salary scale never mind the start ? Have you seen what a B747 CSD earns - including those nice tax free cash allowances for being stuck in the Seychelles for 4 days at a company hotel ?
Dunx - get your validations not just the licence and tell us, after you fifth busy summer, if you still think it is so easy.
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10W : No Spain cannot be considered a High income country but nevertheless they pay their controllers the average european salary. Therefore the mention .
Yes Eurocontrol salaries are still 15-20% higher than UK but they are expatriation salaries, not national ones.
Comparing exactly salaries in Europe is anyway difficult as many fringe benefits cannot be easily translated in money. (How do you include a retirement age of 52-53 (Germany present) aginst a retirement age of 65-67 (Sweden ) ?
POMPI : The main reason why salaries of controllers are relatively high at the moment is a simple supply/demand one. There is a large shortage of en-route controllers Europe-wide, and difficulties in recruiting and retaining young individuals in the proffesion. As long as this will continue, and the traffic to grow, salaries are likely to continue to increase.
As traffic grow and delays are sky rocketting, there are and will be tremendous pressure from airlines to reduce those delays.Generally the first thing newly Privatised or corporatised ATS institutions do is to "optimise" and 'rationalise" working rosters. (i.e. how to make people work more )
If you want illustration of what I am saying you can check the Canadian controller site ( catca.ca)
Again, money alone if not the thing to focus on while envisaging privatisation.
Yes Eurocontrol salaries are still 15-20% higher than UK but they are expatriation salaries, not national ones.
Comparing exactly salaries in Europe is anyway difficult as many fringe benefits cannot be easily translated in money. (How do you include a retirement age of 52-53 (Germany present) aginst a retirement age of 65-67 (Sweden ) ?
POMPI : The main reason why salaries of controllers are relatively high at the moment is a simple supply/demand one. There is a large shortage of en-route controllers Europe-wide, and difficulties in recruiting and retaining young individuals in the proffesion. As long as this will continue, and the traffic to grow, salaries are likely to continue to increase.
As traffic grow and delays are sky rocketting, there are and will be tremendous pressure from airlines to reduce those delays.Generally the first thing newly Privatised or corporatised ATS institutions do is to "optimise" and 'rationalise" working rosters. (i.e. how to make people work more )
If you want illustration of what I am saying you can check the Canadian controller site ( catca.ca)
Again, money alone if not the thing to focus on while envisaging privatisation.