...the full picture...
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Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Approaching DANDI FL240
...the full picture...
In the UK, I often hear the phrase "Climb level XXX, when instructed by ACC climb to level YYY". No problem - good idea telling people what they can expext (so we may advise other requested level 
on initial contact with ACC).
However, it appears that ATCO's are very keen on having a readback of the last part of the message. Why? It is NOT a claerance, advisory only. I would think it simpler and thus safer to read-back only cleared level, not what to ecpect later on.
Or is there indeed a good reason???
on initial contact with ACC).However, it appears that ATCO's are very keen on having a readback of the last part of the message. Why? It is NOT a claerance, advisory only. I would think it simpler and thus safer to read-back only cleared level, not what to ecpect later on.
Or is there indeed a good reason???
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From: here to eternity
Ivan, if it is part of your departure clearance, you must read it back in full. If something along the lines of what you post is given to an aircraft in flight, you are correct, the latter part is not a clearance, so there is no requirement to read it back.
So, if you are given "ABC123 is cleared flightplan destination via XYZ, after departure climb straight ahead flight level 120, when instructed by radar climb flight level 340, frequency when advised 123.45, squawk 1234", you read ALL of it back.
FWIW, the phraseology you give is incorrect.
"Climb flight level XXX, when instructed by ACC climb flight level YYY" is more correct - though I don't promise that's 100%!
"Level" is a description of the aircraft attitude - i.e. not climbing or descending. Therefore in the above phrase, the words are "flight level". Also the word "to" in a climb or descent clearance is only used when the level-off point is an altitude or height and then the phraseology is "Descend to altitude 2000 feet XXXXXX QNH/QFE (as appropriate) 1004" or similar.
So, if you are given "ABC123 is cleared flightplan destination via XYZ, after departure climb straight ahead flight level 120, when instructed by radar climb flight level 340, frequency when advised 123.45, squawk 1234", you read ALL of it back.
FWIW, the phraseology you give is incorrect.
"Climb flight level XXX, when instructed by ACC climb flight level YYY" is more correct - though I don't promise that's 100%!
"Level" is a description of the aircraft attitude - i.e. not climbing or descending. Therefore in the above phrase, the words are "flight level". Also the word "to" in a climb or descent clearance is only used when the level-off point is an altitude or height and then the phraseology is "Descend to altitude 2000 feet XXXXXX QNH/QFE (as appropriate) 1004" or similar.
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Around
This is the relevant quote from the MATS part 1. (controllers bible):
"If an aircraft which has been given a clearance that includes 'climb when instructed by radar' experiences a radio failure within controlled airspace it can be assumed that the pilot will:
(a) Proceed in accordance with the clearance given, climbing to the assigned level within controlled airspace,
(b) After passing the last reporting point at which a level restriction is specified in the clearance, continue the climb within controlled airspace to the flight planned level. This is not necessarily the level assigned in the clearance."
This procedure is different from the one that would apply if the clearance had instead included 'request level change en route'. It's therefore important that everyone's clear what type of clearance you've been given - hence the requirement for the readback.
Aside from that, it's part of the clearance which is a mandatory readback in any case. Hope this helps
"If an aircraft which has been given a clearance that includes 'climb when instructed by radar' experiences a radio failure within controlled airspace it can be assumed that the pilot will:
(a) Proceed in accordance with the clearance given, climbing to the assigned level within controlled airspace,
(b) After passing the last reporting point at which a level restriction is specified in the clearance, continue the climb within controlled airspace to the flight planned level. This is not necessarily the level assigned in the clearance."
This procedure is different from the one that would apply if the clearance had instead included 'request level change en route'. It's therefore important that everyone's clear what type of clearance you've been given - hence the requirement for the readback.
Aside from that, it's part of the clearance which is a mandatory readback in any case. Hope this helps
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Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Approaching DANDI FL240
Geltlemen - I stand corrected :o
...but since I am not allowed to abbreviate on the radio, I WILL abbreviate on my PC
If it's part of the MATS, there are no further questions - and I will read it back each & every time from now on...
Hot beer & cold coffee - something has gone wrong!
...but since I am not allowed to abbreviate on the radio, I WILL abbreviate on my PC
If it's part of the MATS, there are no further questions - and I will read it back each & every time from now on...
Hot beer & cold coffee - something has gone wrong!
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From: Europe
Lucky Huggy's guarantee was not 100% 
The book format is Cleared to (destination) via (routeing) at (level), climb when instructed by radar to (level).
Level in terms of aircraft attitude is nothing to do with ATC or your clearance. Whether you fly it upside down, in a 45 degree bank, or any other attitude is of no relevance to ATC as long as you comply with the clearance. Rather we use level in the sense defined by ICAO, which is A generic term relating to the vertical position of an aircraft in flight and meaning variously height, altitude, or Flight Level.
Rodan has provided the reasoning behind the different clearances which may be given.
The book format is Cleared to (destination) via (routeing) at (level), climb when instructed by radar to (level).
Level in terms of aircraft attitude is nothing to do with ATC or your clearance. Whether you fly it upside down, in a 45 degree bank, or any other attitude is of no relevance to ATC as long as you comply with the clearance. Rather we use level in the sense defined by ICAO, which is A generic term relating to the vertical position of an aircraft in flight and meaning variously height, altitude, or Flight Level.
Rodan has provided the reasoning behind the different clearances which may be given.
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From: Approaching DANDI FL240
Spekesoftly - how on Earth(!) did that aircraft score?
- unless you are being VERY macabre...which I trust is not the case!
And thanks for all the replies - especially to Hug for sticking out his neck to broaden my horizons - only to have it wh@cked by Radar - a gallant effort!
And now that I have learned the strange customs of your country, I may once again face the perils of W5D - and why? To get to LSI, of all places! What a bloody idiot am I!
Cheers to all!
- unless you are being VERY macabre...which I trust is not the case!
And thanks for all the replies - especially to Hug for sticking out his neck to broaden my horizons - only to have it wh@cked by Radar
- a gallant effort!And now that I have learned the strange customs of your country, I may once again face the perils of W5D - and why? To get to LSI, of all places! What a bloody idiot am I!
Cheers to all!
