Pilots reporting speed control
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I have, admittedly, skimmed through this quite long thread, so forgive me if I repeat anything someone else has already said.
To the original point: if pilots are instructed to do something while under radar control then they should comply unless doing so would endanger the aircraft. I can't, for a moment understand any pilot deliberately not flying a speed as instructed, but I know that wasn't the original point. That was telling the next sector your speed.
I think this is not a deliberate ploy and I realise the original post was a 'gentle' reminder. I've often thought we have to tell the next person too much and I wonder how much of that they hear. Could it be the controller didn't hear it?
Although it's not necessarily absolutley correct, due to the niceties etc a typical call could be: "Morning Director, Speedpig 533, flight level 105 descending flight level 80, radar heading 280, speed 280, Airbus 320, information Golf."
This is quite a common mouthful to have to spit out and I'm sure it's obvious why some things might get left out. Equally the over-worked director might only hear the bits he really needs to hear (who and where they're going) so the speed might get 'missed'.
You guys and girls do a great job and we certainly don't try to make it harder. Most of us are pretty normal humans and screw things up, such as radio calls, like the best of them but I still reckon the Brits are the best in the World...both sides of the 'scope
That should get the Shermans going......
And.....
Recover
PS: what's the name of the really nice LGW Director who sounds like the 'Suit you' blokes off the Fast Show? "Good day, Sir....oohhh"....makes me laugh every time
To the original point: if pilots are instructed to do something while under radar control then they should comply unless doing so would endanger the aircraft. I can't, for a moment understand any pilot deliberately not flying a speed as instructed, but I know that wasn't the original point. That was telling the next sector your speed.
I think this is not a deliberate ploy and I realise the original post was a 'gentle' reminder. I've often thought we have to tell the next person too much and I wonder how much of that they hear. Could it be the controller didn't hear it?
Although it's not necessarily absolutley correct, due to the niceties etc a typical call could be: "Morning Director, Speedpig 533, flight level 105 descending flight level 80, radar heading 280, speed 280, Airbus 320, information Golf."
This is quite a common mouthful to have to spit out and I'm sure it's obvious why some things might get left out. Equally the over-worked director might only hear the bits he really needs to hear (who and where they're going) so the speed might get 'missed'.
You guys and girls do a great job and we certainly don't try to make it harder. Most of us are pretty normal humans and screw things up, such as radio calls, like the best of them but I still reckon the Brits are the best in the World...both sides of the 'scope
That should get the Shermans going......
And.....
Recover
PS: what's the name of the really nice LGW Director who sounds like the 'Suit you' blokes off the Fast Show? "Good day, Sir....oohhh"....makes me laugh every time
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Recover,
Not really adding to the debate, but it might interest you to know that when you say...
The approach director does the following....
1) locates your flight strip
2) scores out levels 120 and 110 as having been passed,
3) circles reported cleared level,
4) writes down reported heading,
5) writes down reported speed, or maybe uses a "+" to indicate a high speed,
6) ticks aircraft type, or changes it if different,
7)notes atis information received on strip and informs if a more up to date one available.
All the information is relevant, though some parts arguably more than others, and should all be copied onto the flight strip as you're speaking.
But if you had failed to mention cleared level, aircraft type and information received we'd have to ask.
And, relevant to this debate, if you were on a heading from the previous sector but not mentioned it, well ideally we do really like to know.
It's just unfortunate that not all transfers between the far apart area sectors can be as short and straightforward as those between the cosily sat together approach directors like myself.....
"report your callsign only to..."
Maybe one day though, when we're up and running with Mode S and datalinks.
WF.
Not really adding to the debate, but it might interest you to know that when you say...
Although it's not necessarily absolutley correct, due to the niceties etc a typical call could be: "Morning Director, Speedpig 533, flight level 105 descending flight level 80, radar heading 280, speed 280, Airbus 320, information Golf."
1) locates your flight strip
2) scores out levels 120 and 110 as having been passed,
3) circles reported cleared level,
4) writes down reported heading,
5) writes down reported speed, or maybe uses a "+" to indicate a high speed,
6) ticks aircraft type, or changes it if different,
7)notes atis information received on strip and informs if a more up to date one available.
All the information is relevant, though some parts arguably more than others, and should all be copied onto the flight strip as you're speaking.
But if you had failed to mention cleared level, aircraft type and information received we'd have to ask.
And, relevant to this debate, if you were on a heading from the previous sector but not mentioned it, well ideally we do really like to know.
It's just unfortunate that not all transfers between the far apart area sectors can be as short and straightforward as those between the cosily sat together approach directors like myself.....
"report your callsign only to..."
Maybe one day though, when we're up and running with Mode S and datalinks.
WF.
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As a non-ATC non commercial pilot may I just say one thing. In the past whether flying for business or pleasure it was my habit to ask to visit the flightdeck. It has been my privilege to do so on many occasions with many scheduled carriers and, as I have mentioned elsewhere before, been invited to come back/stay for landings almost everywhere I have flown. There was, however, one incident that bothered me. Not on a Brit carrier. I was returning with my mother from a vacation in Cyprus a few years ago. I had asked and been invited to the flightdeck and asked back for the landing. The aircraft had made initial contact with UK ATC and was given a heading and height to be at by. The captain was an older man, very profession, the co-pilot a younger "demi-god" wearing a gold chain (truly!!). The "demi-god" was responsible for the sector. He set the heading incorrectly, and set the height incorrectly. The captain was reading the airport layout manual to check runways as it was a while since he had flown into UK. The aircraft flew on...and then, having hesitated to interfere I asked "Captain, so how much discretion does an aircraft have to set its own heading/height - is it a matter of degrees either side?". The Captain exclaimed "of course not", looked at the instruments, spoke very intensely in his own language to the co-pilot who made the appropriate adjustments....no-one spoke to ATC and the flight continued.
Having learned to fly in SE England and living in I am extremely aware of how busy this airspace is ... the thought that an airliner could have continued on its merry way on an incorrect course/height was quite enlightening!
I suppose my question/comment is. Everyone is human but...if I hadn't made my (possibly smart-ass) comment, if the Captain hadn't noted the correct data, at what point would ATC have noticed the course deviation? also, at the point the Captain realised the aircraft was on an incorrect heading, should he/co-pilot have contacted ATC to advise of error?
Having learned to fly in SE England and living in I am extremely aware of how busy this airspace is ... the thought that an airliner could have continued on its merry way on an incorrect course/height was quite enlightening!
I suppose my question/comment is. Everyone is human but...if I hadn't made my (possibly smart-ass) comment, if the Captain hadn't noted the correct data, at what point would ATC have noticed the course deviation? also, at the point the Captain realised the aircraft was on an incorrect heading, should he/co-pilot have contacted ATC to advise of error?
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Hug Monster, please,please tell us all which airline you are a training captain for.Then we can all avoid flying with you. A more ignorant and unprofessional attitude from an alleged pilot i have never seen on PPrune.
Maybe one day though, when we're up and running with Mode S and datalinks.
At the same time you are expecting each of your customers to spend tens of thousands of pounds equipping with Mode S. Perhaps NATS could save a bit on Cat 5 cabling by using up some Mode S extended squitter bandwidth and bouncing your email off your customers' equipment too?
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brockenspectre,
As far as your first question, I cannot answer this as I am not an ATCO.
The second I can hopefully. If I ever find out that we are on an incorrect heading/course than that given I will always advise ATC of the cock up. Aswell as this I find it incredible that the Captain of this aircraft you were on didn't look up and confirm the change in altitude. I can only speak for myself and my airline but the SOPS ensure that there is always audible confirmation of altitude changes even if someone has been away talking to handling/getting weather etc.
Regards le loup garou
As far as your first question, I cannot answer this as I am not an ATCO.
The second I can hopefully. If I ever find out that we are on an incorrect heading/course than that given I will always advise ATC of the cock up. Aswell as this I find it incredible that the Captain of this aircraft you were on didn't look up and confirm the change in altitude. I can only speak for myself and my airline but the SOPS ensure that there is always audible confirmation of altitude changes even if someone has been away talking to handling/getting weather etc.
Regards le loup garou
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loup, agreed.
Once I noticed that the FO with whom I was flying was not actually looking up at the FMCU when I (handling pilot) selected an altitude and called it. He was simply responding "Seen" without checking it.
On the next change (cleared in the descent FL100) I deliberately mis-set FL110 and called "FL100 set". He responded "Seen". He didn't even notice when, a few seconds later, I reset it to the correct figure.
This concerned me so much I had a word with a couple of senior pilots. One of the main reasons there are two of us up there is so that there is ample cross-checking of each others' actions. If one pilot is not going to do that, then the situation becomes dangerous. I rely on my FO to sort me out when I make a cock-up. Similarly, I'll look after him.
Mistakes do get made - and often. Read any decent book on Human Factors to find out the many reasons why. You can't stop them, but trapping those mistakes is, frequently, a very complex science. But one of the best starting points is each member of the team being conscientious in maintaining an understanding of what all the other team members is supposed to be doing.
On eother reason why I was rather vehement in my initial response to this thread is the element in Asda's post of asking people not to make mistakes. If I could stop making mistakes, believe me, I would!
Once I noticed that the FO with whom I was flying was not actually looking up at the FMCU when I (handling pilot) selected an altitude and called it. He was simply responding "Seen" without checking it.
On the next change (cleared in the descent FL100) I deliberately mis-set FL110 and called "FL100 set". He responded "Seen". He didn't even notice when, a few seconds later, I reset it to the correct figure.
This concerned me so much I had a word with a couple of senior pilots. One of the main reasons there are two of us up there is so that there is ample cross-checking of each others' actions. If one pilot is not going to do that, then the situation becomes dangerous. I rely on my FO to sort me out when I make a cock-up. Similarly, I'll look after him.
Mistakes do get made - and often. Read any decent book on Human Factors to find out the many reasons why. You can't stop them, but trapping those mistakes is, frequently, a very complex science. But one of the best starting points is each member of the team being conscientious in maintaining an understanding of what all the other team members is supposed to be doing.
On eother reason why I was rather vehement in my initial response to this thread is the element in Asda's post of asking people not to make mistakes. If I could stop making mistakes, believe me, I would!
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Hug, I do believe that neither pilots nor controllers make mistakes on purpose, and that with us all being human they will happen. I also believe that without complete knoweledge of what each other is doing then neither of us know why such "mistakes" occur, and that, I hope, was the basis for this current thread.
Please don't think that there is always a them and us attitude when it comes to problems such as these. I and many of my colleagues have great respect for those of you who sit up front. Now, before this has any chance of turning into a love-in, got any more subjects we can have a good row about??!!!
Please don't think that there is always a them and us attitude when it comes to problems such as these. I and many of my colleagues have great respect for those of you who sit up front. Now, before this has any chance of turning into a love-in, got any more subjects we can have a good row about??!!!
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Brokenspectre: We would notice it as soon as the track did not do what we expected based upon the instructions we have given. If it is a heading then it might not be critical, but a wrongly set altitude/flight level might only become apparent as a level bust or a level off higher or lower than expected. Only this morning I sent an A319 direct to a point which should have taken him left and he turned right by some 25 degrees. Not a problem in itself, except that 6 miles behind him was another A319 of his own company who I had sent off to another point to the right and derestricted the speed control once he was on track. When they closed to within 5 miles (still with vertical separation) I queried where the first one was going. A slight pause and "Err,.. the point you sent us to was not on our route so we weren't sure" Well why did you allow the aircraft to come off the radar heading direct to some other point? As has been said many times: if you're not sure, ASK AT THE TIME!
With regard to your second question, I would hope that the Captain/PNF would query any misunderstanding like that. How could the Captain be certain that he and not the FO was correct?
Bookworm: What do you think close on £1bn has been spent on down at Swanwick? Why, electronic coordination to reduce the amount of verbal communication that has to go on. Take a read through the pages of this Bulletin Board to see how successful that has been!! Come to think of it, an A level IT student might have made a better job of it than our 'experts' have done!
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: eyeinthesky ]
With regard to your second question, I would hope that the Captain/PNF would query any misunderstanding like that. How could the Captain be certain that he and not the FO was correct?
Bookworm: What do you think close on £1bn has been spent on down at Swanwick? Why, electronic coordination to reduce the amount of verbal communication that has to go on. Take a read through the pages of this Bulletin Board to see how successful that has been!! Come to think of it, an A level IT student might have made a better job of it than our 'experts' have done!
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: eyeinthesky ]
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Huggy;
If you think that TCAS shows you everyting out there, please think again. TCAS is programed to NOT show you everything that it deems is not a threat due to overloading. It also has problems in seeing all targets out there due to antenna location...
regards
If you think that TCAS shows you everyting out there, please think again. TCAS is programed to NOT show you everything that it deems is not a threat due to overloading. It also has problems in seeing all targets out there due to antenna location...
regards
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S Voigt NATCA safety,
Be fair on Huggie I think you will find that he didn't say we could see everything out there. He did say that out to twelve miles whatever is squaking he will see, Which is not too unreasonable thing to presume as the surveillance volume of the TCAS system scans range of approximately 40 nm and 9000 feet above and below the aircraft.
As far as the overloading issue, with which I agree by the way. TCAS 2 can track as many as 45 aircraft, display up to 30 of them and can coordinate a resolution advisory for up to 3 intruders at once. Which gives me a pretty good view of the situation that I am in.
Regards le loup garou
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: le loup garou ]
Be fair on Huggie I think you will find that he didn't say we could see everything out there. He did say that out to twelve miles whatever is squaking he will see, Which is not too unreasonable thing to presume as the surveillance volume of the TCAS system scans range of approximately 40 nm and 9000 feet above and below the aircraft.
As far as the overloading issue, with which I agree by the way. TCAS 2 can track as many as 45 aircraft, display up to 30 of them and can coordinate a resolution advisory for up to 3 intruders at once. Which gives me a pretty good view of the situation that I am in.
Regards le loup garou
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: le loup garou ]
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Eye - with regard to PNF querying any setting, clearance, etc. - My last company had what I reckoned was an excellent policy which dictated that, when either pilot was unsure ("Was that heading 220 or 200?") the PNF immediately queried it with ATC. Too often a junior FO will not feel able to do so with a Captain of the crusty variety ("I darned well TOLD you it was 220, you young whippersnapper, but you didn't believe me") so such a policy takes the possible argument out of the equation.
And Vectors:-
Your very nice Guild Chairman invited me to speak at the last conference. He had hoped that I would upset as many people as I did at the NCL ShAirSpace Forum. Unfortunately I failed to live up to his expectations. Sorry Richard! 
I have no particular problem with the concept of upsetting people if it gets topics out and aired, and a "free and frank" exchange of views going!
And Vectors:-
Your very nice Guild Chairman invited me to speak at the last conference. He had hoped that I would upset as many people as I did at the NCL ShAirSpace Forum. Unfortunately I failed to live up to his expectations.
Sorry Richard! I have no particular problem with the concept of upsetting people if it gets topics out and aired, and a "free and frank" exchange of views going!
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Huggie,
May I suggest that if an FO of any variety whether junior or not, felt like he could not question a Captain(whether crusty or not) he/she should not be in the seat.
Safety should come over the thought of hurting someones feelings, as I know that you are aware.
Regards le loup garou
May I suggest that if an FO of any variety whether junior or not, felt like he could not question a Captain(whether crusty or not) he/she should not be in the seat.
Safety should come over the thought of hurting someones feelings, as I know that you are aware.
Regards le loup garou
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That is an argument that has some merit. However, over-timid FOs to exist. Even if he is not afraid to ask the question, an overbearing captain is quite capable of making life hell if he feels his authority is being questioned. So, such a policy eliminates the possibility. Another possibility is a strong FO, who has had enough. ("OK, you stupid old Bu88er - you steer that course - I'll sit back and watch while you get into trouble and learn your lesson").
Flight Safety is a question largely of plugging the holes in a series of slices of Swiss cheese - if you've heard of that metaphor before. This plugs one hole, even where a corresponding adjacent hole should not be allowed to exist.
Flight Safety is a question largely of plugging the holes in a series of slices of Swiss cheese - if you've heard of that metaphor before. This plugs one hole, even where a corresponding adjacent hole should not be allowed to exist.
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To those crews relying on TCAS be aware it is completely unreliable in azimuth!! It may give a return from an a/c you hear over the r/t but it will not display its position accurately.
Incidently HG if you deliberately mis-set an altitude/heading on me to check whether I was cross-checking you and I didn't...who would cross-check you to check you had correctly reset. You would be guilty of the failure you claim to be checking for.
Incidently HG if you deliberately mis-set an altitude/heading on me to check whether I was cross-checking you and I didn't...who would cross-check you to check you had correctly reset. You would be guilty of the failure you claim to be checking for.
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Gentlemen,
nice to see that the vitriol has now died down, and some thoughtful responses are now being offered.
I agree with both sides of the arguement, neither one of us is perfect and we both need the other to do our job properly. Teamwork...
I can't remember who mentioned earlier about not having heard of an incident being due to someone busting a level?
My immediate thought was northern India about 3 years ago...Saudi and a Russian. The Russian busted his level and collided with the Saudi.
TCAS could have saved the day...but if I remember correctly, the other aircraft wasn't squawking, so the Saudi had no warning of it. I may be mistaken, but I think you get the idea.
In this part of the world, it seems very regular that some airlines(?) refuse to turn their transponder on until required to do so.
Sad but true I'm afraid.
I had an aircraft rightly screaming at me about a 100m near miss that he had over the Indian Ocean, not in my airspace I hasten to add...that one didn't have his transponder on either! The first he noticed was a very big blue and white Russian in his window!
BTW, I'm not sure of the system that you guys have in the UK, but here we can "tag" a primary return with a label...the only thing it doesn't give out is a height readout, so for the pilots out there, you may not see it on the TCAS as it doesn't have a transponder, but it could well be out there.
nice to see that the vitriol has now died down, and some thoughtful responses are now being offered.
I agree with both sides of the arguement, neither one of us is perfect and we both need the other to do our job properly. Teamwork...
I can't remember who mentioned earlier about not having heard of an incident being due to someone busting a level?
My immediate thought was northern India about 3 years ago...Saudi and a Russian. The Russian busted his level and collided with the Saudi.
TCAS could have saved the day...but if I remember correctly, the other aircraft wasn't squawking, so the Saudi had no warning of it. I may be mistaken, but I think you get the idea.
In this part of the world, it seems very regular that some airlines(?) refuse to turn their transponder on until required to do so.
Sad but true I'm afraid.
I had an aircraft rightly screaming at me about a 100m near miss that he had over the Indian Ocean, not in my airspace I hasten to add...that one didn't have his transponder on either! The first he noticed was a very big blue and white Russian in his window!
BTW, I'm not sure of the system that you guys have in the UK, but here we can "tag" a primary return with a label...the only thing it doesn't give out is a height readout, so for the pilots out there, you may not see it on the TCAS as it doesn't have a transponder, but it could well be out there.
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westman,
I don't think that I made my last post very clear. I don't believe that crews do use TCAS as their sole reference to the aircraft around them, but it is a useful tool to aid in situational awareness. The others of which I know that you are aware obviously come from our friends in ATC, other aircraft transmissions, continual reference to MSA'S etc.
After reading back my post I can see how you may have presumed this of me.
Regards le loup garou
I don't think that I made my last post very clear. I don't believe that crews do use TCAS as their sole reference to the aircraft around them, but it is a useful tool to aid in situational awareness. The others of which I know that you are aware obviously come from our friends in ATC, other aircraft transmissions, continual reference to MSA'S etc.
After reading back my post I can see how you may have presumed this of me.
Regards le loup garou
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Following an exchange on the RTf just recently, I wouldn't rely at all on TCAS to show you the picture. Some versions don't display non-threatening aircraft, which can be as little as 1000ft above, MINIMUM separation!!! The a/c in question is commonly used on commuter routes in England/Europe, and the pilot actually asked for the level/type of the opposite direction flight to check his TCAS, and then said it could be faulty as it wasn't displayed. Another pilot on freq. then jumped in to say theirs was the same (diff type a/c) and explained the limiting extent of TCAS, much to my own personal shock. 
TCAS may have its problems, but I never want to fly without it, especially going into Southern California with all its VFR traffic.
I know as a prior controller that the primary job is to seperate IFR aircraft and that VFR traffic is called on a traffic permitting basis. This uncalled traffic is where I find TCAS to be worth its weight in gold.
I know as a prior controller that the primary job is to seperate IFR aircraft and that VFR traffic is called on a traffic permitting basis. This uncalled traffic is where I find TCAS to be worth its weight in gold.
