NERC/TC Interface
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NERC/TC Interface
Just windering.......can anyone enlighten me here ?
I am supposing that the introduction of NERC is going to be "transparent" as far as handing over/receiving traffic from/to TC ??
I say "I am supposing" because there's only about 3 months to go until the "big bang" and no-one has said anything about it ?
I am supposing that the introduction of NERC is going to be "transparent" as far as handing over/receiving traffic from/to TC ??
I say "I am supposing" because there's only about 3 months to go until the "big bang" and no-one has said anything about it ?
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Correct I think.
Nothing should change except TC will probably not have the ability to make quick response phone calls for a couple of years until they become conversant with the ludicrous and completely unnecessary sector numbers.
Still very noticeable that during E modules many planners spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find the correct sector number in a hurry to advise of unexpected airspace penetration.
Only really needs a graphics update of the phone panels and a few edits to the manuals -the rest stays transparent to operations - exactly like the printer numbers at Latcc now.
Isn't progress wonderful!!??
[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: Ahh-40612 ]
Nothing should change except TC will probably not have the ability to make quick response phone calls for a couple of years until they become conversant with the ludicrous and completely unnecessary sector numbers.
Still very noticeable that during E modules many planners spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find the correct sector number in a hurry to advise of unexpected airspace penetration.
Only really needs a graphics update of the phone panels and a few edits to the manuals -the rest stays transparent to operations - exactly like the printer numbers at Latcc now.
Isn't progress wonderful!!??
[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: Ahh-40612 ]
A couple of other points to bear in mind -
1. If a flight has not been activated for whatever reason, as happens from time to time, remember that there will be nothing showing on our electronics, AND the ATSA is not sitting in front of a mass of pending strips which can be called for pdq.
2. Unlike the current situation, where the CSC can often answer for several radar sectors, the planner or tactical you phone will know about only his/her traffic. You will need to aim your calls carefully, and may need to make two or more where one would suffice now.
1. If a flight has not been activated for whatever reason, as happens from time to time, remember that there will be nothing showing on our electronics, AND the ATSA is not sitting in front of a mass of pending strips which can be called for pdq.
2. Unlike the current situation, where the CSC can often answer for several radar sectors, the planner or tactical you phone will know about only his/her traffic. You will need to aim your calls carefully, and may need to make two or more where one would suffice now.
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To carry on Numpo's thread if I can. At present AC sectors carry pending strips for all TC traffic. If an ATSA suspects that a flight is not pending although a strip is held then a check is carried out. At Swanwick penders are not used, so if a delay message is missed then I believe that I am correct in saying that the flight will not be activated. I think this means that the NERC planner will have to perform a forced offer to the sector after the aircraft has surprised the tactical controller. Somebody please tell me that I am wrong.
Z
Z
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Sorry Zip - I'm not sure what you are saying. We check penders to get rid of the dead wood. If a flight is activated at TC, it is activated at NERC - same computer, different front end.
If TC (for example) don't activate a flight, that should be rectified before it gets to NERC. Of course, there are all sorts of failure modes that can upset the whole thing but don't get me started on those!!!
If TC (for example) don't activate a flight, that should be rectified before it gets to NERC. Of course, there are all sorts of failure modes that can upset the whole thing but don't get me started on those!!!
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Hi Chippy,
The point I was making is that there are times when TC are the first NAS equipped sector and they pass the traffic to AC on standing agreements. I believe that TC work on pending strips, not live ones, and there is a chance that the flight has not been "DM"ed before transfer to AC. At present we have CCTV for departures (not at NERC I believe) and particularly for airfields with but a short time from airborne to AC transfer we have a pending strip which is displayed on the appropriate radar position. This is done because it is essential for the radar controller to have a strip to annotate when the aircraft calls. As the NERC system only processes the flight when NAS considers it to be live, I believe that there is a strong possibility that aircraft could call without the paperwork being present. Furthermore, in this case, I think that the flight would appear as a background track without code callsign conversion so the tactical would be unable to identify the flight. If I am right about all of this does it not mean that there could be unknown aircraft in the sector which would not trigger intruder alert because the SSR code is unknown by the NERC system? Maybe something has been built in to prevent this happening. At present aircraft do call AC when the flight has not been activated in NAS. If this was not the case then the departure CCTV and the AC pending strips would be redundant and, at present, the definately are not!!
Regards
Z
The point I was making is that there are times when TC are the first NAS equipped sector and they pass the traffic to AC on standing agreements. I believe that TC work on pending strips, not live ones, and there is a chance that the flight has not been "DM"ed before transfer to AC. At present we have CCTV for departures (not at NERC I believe) and particularly for airfields with but a short time from airborne to AC transfer we have a pending strip which is displayed on the appropriate radar position. This is done because it is essential for the radar controller to have a strip to annotate when the aircraft calls. As the NERC system only processes the flight when NAS considers it to be live, I believe that there is a strong possibility that aircraft could call without the paperwork being present. Furthermore, in this case, I think that the flight would appear as a background track without code callsign conversion so the tactical would be unable to identify the flight. If I am right about all of this does it not mean that there could be unknown aircraft in the sector which would not trigger intruder alert because the SSR code is unknown by the NERC system? Maybe something has been built in to prevent this happening. At present aircraft do call AC when the flight has not been activated in NAS. If this was not the case then the departure CCTV and the AC pending strips would be redundant and, at present, the definately are not!!
Regards
Z
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TRUE...
Auto DM is also known to "miss" departures.
Auto DM is at the bottom of NAS "things to do" list.
Hence the reason for pending strips on BRS (sorry S23, the NEW one not the old one) and one of the reasons for Departure CCTV in AC LATCC. Neither are available at NERC.
BEX
Auto DM is also known to "miss" departures.
Auto DM is at the bottom of NAS "things to do" list.
Hence the reason for pending strips on BRS (sorry S23, the NEW one not the old one) and one of the reasons for Departure CCTV in AC LATCC. Neither are available at NERC.
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Ok ZIP - I see what you mean, and agree. Even once is once too often. i wasn't aware that there was no Departure CCTV at NERC - if nothing else is a very good planning tool, hence the reason we still have it!
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Zip..........
I think it would be extreemly unlikely for an aicraft to be "transfered" to AC without being DM'd. The reason being that it would normally be working TC prior to the "transfer" taking place. Upon initial contact with TC it would be apparent that it had not been DM'd and the controller would then inform the wings who would DM it.
Regards
FBW
I think it would be extreemly unlikely for an aicraft to be "transfered" to AC without being DM'd. The reason being that it would normally be working TC prior to the "transfer" taking place. Upon initial contact with TC it would be apparent that it had not been DM'd and the controller would then inform the wings who would DM it.
Regards
FBW
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For an typical departure to be transferred to AC without being DM'd, three things would have to happen.
1) The FDS ATSAs fail to input the DM (if required to do so)
2) The aircraft is not picked up by the Auto DM facility (if available)
3) It goes unnoticed by the Sector Controller
Possible but rare I would imagine.
It is also worth noting that CCTV relies exclusively on AUTO DM for airborne times now, so if there is a question over this facility there must also be a question over the accuracy of the CCTV.
Pending strips are largely used because of the printer/wings workload and the time it would take to deliver "live" strips to the sectors. Hopefully this will not apply to NERC
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: Karoshi ]
1) The FDS ATSAs fail to input the DM (if required to do so)
2) The aircraft is not picked up by the Auto DM facility (if available)
3) It goes unnoticed by the Sector Controller
Possible but rare I would imagine.
It is also worth noting that CCTV relies exclusively on AUTO DM for airborne times now, so if there is a question over this facility there must also be a question over the accuracy of the CCTV.
Pending strips are largely used because of the printer/wings workload and the time it would take to deliver "live" strips to the sectors. Hopefully this will not apply to NERC
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: Karoshi ]
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1. The code/callsign data base does not depend on the aircraft being DM'd. The code must be allocated before departure (for fairly obvious reasons).
2. TC controllers work in bypass as already stated so are unaware that auto DM has failed.
3. The departure CCTV at the very least allows an AC radar controller to match a background SSR code with the callsign and thus identify it.
I disagree that this will prove to be a rare occurence. There is also a huge question mark over ATSA workload at NERC. Remember there will be one ATSA per setor and no CSC to wander over and grab the offending strip. Another leap backwards?
Z
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: ZIP250 ]
2. TC controllers work in bypass as already stated so are unaware that auto DM has failed.
3. The departure CCTV at the very least allows an AC radar controller to match a background SSR code with the callsign and thus identify it.
I disagree that this will prove to be a rare occurence. There is also a huge question mark over ATSA workload at NERC. Remember there will be one ATSA per setor and no CSC to wander over and grab the offending strip. Another leap backwards?
Z
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: ZIP250 ]
