"After the departing"
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Join Date: Aug 2001
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"After the departing"
I'd be grateful if any LHR ATCO's could confirm the "after the departing aircraft" line up procedure. I thought you could only cross the holding point once the preceding aircraft was cleared for take off and had started moving. I've noticed that one airline in particular is very keen to get onto the runway even when there's another aircraft on it! Is this acceptable at LHR?
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I'm not from LHR but, for what it's worth, I don't think there are any hard and fast rules on this - it's up to the pilot tof the second aircraft to line up when he/she considers it safe to do so. I would have thought that it would be good practice to let the jet blast/prop wash to settle before lining up but that's just me I guess. In most cases (with transport type aircraft) there shouldn't be that much rush because there'll usually be at least 1 min delay for IFR separation.
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Hi nines,
There's no hard and fast rule. It doesn't cause us a problem if an aircraft sneaks onto the threshold whilst a departure is only just rolling. Usually only happens when the aircraft are of similar weight categories. I would only say something to the pilot of the "keen" aircraft if it was dark or we were in low visibility procedures, when any encroachment is definitely not allowed.
There's no hard and fast rule. It doesn't cause us a problem if an aircraft sneaks onto the threshold whilst a departure is only just rolling. Usually only happens when the aircraft are of similar weight categories. I would only say something to the pilot of the "keen" aircraft if it was dark or we were in low visibility procedures, when any encroachment is definitely not allowed.
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ATCO Two: Surely if it was low vis (fog rather than cloudbase defined) you wouldn't be giving conditional line-ups anyway? How will he know when the other one's departed anyway? I suppose the roar of engines receding into the murk will be a clue. 
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Hi Eyeinthesky,
Precisely! No conditional line ups in LVPs, and the succeeding aircraft will not be cleared for take off until the preceding has passed over the localiser aerial.
Precisely! No conditional line ups in LVPs, and the succeeding aircraft will not be cleared for take off until the preceding has passed over the localiser aerial.
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My Mats 1 (which I haven't updated for a few years!) makes no conditions on conditional line up, but interestingly the only phraseology it has is: "After the landing (aircraft type) line up". The only mention of "After the departing.." is in crossing clearances.
Of course it may have been updated since then.
Of course it may have been updated since then.
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Hi nines,
There is nothing specific in the EGLL MATS Part 2 regarding conditional line up clearances. We always add the company as well as the type to the clearance to help avoid confusion. If there is more than one aircraft of that company/type in the RHA then we would specify first/second (company/type). I do not advocate third/fourth. Of course we need to be particularly careful about confusion with the plethora of different colour schemes in use by certain airlines or code shares. There is a recommendation (no more than that), that only a maximum of 6 - 8 aircraft are in receipt of conditional clearances. I sometimes add number in traffic to my line up instructions. If there is likely to be any possible misunderstanding of my instructions, or if a particular pilot's English is poor, then I will wait and give line up subject to one aircraft only. Finally if you are at all unsure about the clearance - query it!!
There is nothing specific in the EGLL MATS Part 2 regarding conditional line up clearances. We always add the company as well as the type to the clearance to help avoid confusion. If there is more than one aircraft of that company/type in the RHA then we would specify first/second (company/type). I do not advocate third/fourth. Of course we need to be particularly careful about confusion with the plethora of different colour schemes in use by certain airlines or code shares. There is a recommendation (no more than that), that only a maximum of 6 - 8 aircraft are in receipt of conditional clearances. I sometimes add number in traffic to my line up instructions. If there is likely to be any possible misunderstanding of my instructions, or if a particular pilot's English is poor, then I will wait and give line up subject to one aircraft only. Finally if you are at all unsure about the clearance - query it!!
