3 years applying and still no ATCO job?
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3 years applying and still no ATCO job?
Is there anyone out there in the same boat as myself? I originally applied to be an ATCO student (as it was called then) in October 2000! I got through the first interview / test stage, but unfortunately failed on the second / final interview stage and was told that I would have to wait a year before re-applying.
I re-applied in October 2001, but was told that I have to re-apply a year from when I failed my final interview rather that a year from when i originally applied for the application.
I re-applied in February 2002 and was given a first interview / test stage date for November 2002!
I passed this stage and waited for my next test date to arrive.
I got a date for my second / final interview stage for April 2003 in Manchester, however this was cancelled due to staff shortages and re-schedualed for October 2003!
This date was again cancelled due to staff shortages and I managed (due to alot of persuassion) to get on the May 2004 interview in Glasgow (200+miles from home).
It got to two days before the interview and my hotel was booked along with my train ticket and time off work ect and I got an answerphone message to say that this date had been cancelled aswell.
Since May, I have been ringing the outside recruitment company that deal with NATS and firstly I kept getting through to people, but they could not help me and all that they were saying is that everyone is in the same boat and that re-schedualed dates will arrive in the post.
When i last tried to call them, about a week ago - they have a new automated answering service now and you can't even get through to speak to anyone human!
I know that the whole process takes a long time, but reading some (very lucky) peoples messages on this wed site, they seem to be at Bournemouth within a year?
I just wondered if anyone out there was in the same boat as myself and was pulling there hair out and feeling totally helpless and not knowing what to do next for the better?
To make matters even worse, im 29 in November and therefore over age for applying then!
Please can someone help?
I re-applied in October 2001, but was told that I have to re-apply a year from when I failed my final interview rather that a year from when i originally applied for the application.
I re-applied in February 2002 and was given a first interview / test stage date for November 2002!
I passed this stage and waited for my next test date to arrive.
I got a date for my second / final interview stage for April 2003 in Manchester, however this was cancelled due to staff shortages and re-schedualed for October 2003!
This date was again cancelled due to staff shortages and I managed (due to alot of persuassion) to get on the May 2004 interview in Glasgow (200+miles from home).
It got to two days before the interview and my hotel was booked along with my train ticket and time off work ect and I got an answerphone message to say that this date had been cancelled aswell.
Since May, I have been ringing the outside recruitment company that deal with NATS and firstly I kept getting through to people, but they could not help me and all that they were saying is that everyone is in the same boat and that re-schedualed dates will arrive in the post.
When i last tried to call them, about a week ago - they have a new automated answering service now and you can't even get through to speak to anyone human!
I know that the whole process takes a long time, but reading some (very lucky) peoples messages on this wed site, they seem to be at Bournemouth within a year?
I just wondered if anyone out there was in the same boat as myself and was pulling there hair out and feeling totally helpless and not knowing what to do next for the better?
To make matters even worse, im 29 in November and therefore over age for applying then!
Please can someone help?
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I have to say I sympathise with your situation entirely. the recruitment process does seem to be endless doesn't it? I applied in September 2002 and finally have a start date of December 6th this year. For one reason or another the dates of my course were pushed out, pulled in etc....etc.... Its been like the bl
dy Okey freakin cokey at times.
Persistence is the only way to get around this one. I tried for months to get hold of [name witheld for legal reasons] to no avail. I ended up writing to them in the end. Tip: Send it to the right person and you WILL get a response
Stick with it, I'm sure it will be worth it in the end
dy Okey freakin cokey at times.
When i last tried to call them, about a week ago - they have a new automated answering service now and you can't even get through to speak to anyone human
Stick with it, I'm sure it will be worth it in the end
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Strikes me that NATS HR has really gone down the tubes - utterly disgusting considering how short of controllers they are.
HR wants a sharp kick in the backside.. and I hope someone in management reads this and does something about it..
HR wants a sharp kick in the backside.. and I hope someone in management reads this and does something about it..
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Manc
It's probably no concellation but people inside the company have nearly as much trouble with HR as people outside.
I remember getting a letter welcoming me to my new position at my unit three weeks after I'd started, not to mention other HR incompetencies when I was a student but admittedly they were caused by a lack of communication from my course manger not someone in HR.
But wait, I heard recently he'd been moved to an HR role.
THAT EXPLAINS IT THEN!
The good old HR dumping ground.
Anyway...
It's a hard company to get into unfortunately, and once your in you've got a 75% chance of getting throught the training due to many many reasons.
And that's just the college, never mind validation training.
It is true that you need to talk to the right person as Dannyo says and it might be helpful if he told you who that person was.
Even if you get the name though, don't hold your breath.
The only other advice that can be given if your determined to join
NATS is to keep trying but don't rock the boat too much or you'll be black marked.
If the reason for you applying is that you really want to become an air traffic controller because it's a job you've always wanted to do, then have you applied to eurocontrol?
They work on a similar basis to NATS putting you through selection tests etc.
Another route I would seriously consider is to try other non-NATS units for ATSA jobs with the possibility of ATCO training if your suitable and impress them.
This may take some time to prove yourself but no longer than 3 years I would say.
Now that NATS have stopped training people in Aerodrome before sending them to Area for the chop, there will be a bigger shortage of tower trained ATCO's floating around outside the company looking for jobs.
Also, those that are floating around have been tarred with the ex-cadet brush and employers seem to be reluctant to take them on, so more home growing of ATCOs from ATSAs will probably start to occur in the near future.
It's probably no concellation but people inside the company have nearly as much trouble with HR as people outside.
I remember getting a letter welcoming me to my new position at my unit three weeks after I'd started, not to mention other HR incompetencies when I was a student but admittedly they were caused by a lack of communication from my course manger not someone in HR.
But wait, I heard recently he'd been moved to an HR role.
THAT EXPLAINS IT THEN!
The good old HR dumping ground.
Anyway...
It's a hard company to get into unfortunately, and once your in you've got a 75% chance of getting throught the training due to many many reasons.
And that's just the college, never mind validation training.
It is true that you need to talk to the right person as Dannyo says and it might be helpful if he told you who that person was.
Even if you get the name though, don't hold your breath.
The only other advice that can be given if your determined to join
NATS is to keep trying but don't rock the boat too much or you'll be black marked.
If the reason for you applying is that you really want to become an air traffic controller because it's a job you've always wanted to do, then have you applied to eurocontrol?
They work on a similar basis to NATS putting you through selection tests etc.
Another route I would seriously consider is to try other non-NATS units for ATSA jobs with the possibility of ATCO training if your suitable and impress them.
This may take some time to prove yourself but no longer than 3 years I would say.
Now that NATS have stopped training people in Aerodrome before sending them to Area for the chop, there will be a bigger shortage of tower trained ATCO's floating around outside the company looking for jobs.
Also, those that are floating around have been tarred with the ex-cadet brush and employers seem to be reluctant to take them on, so more home growing of ATCOs from ATSAs will probably start to occur in the near future.
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I am sorry for all those people that have had a problem with NATS HR. They would appear to be a waste of space. We are short of ATCO's and need good quality recruits.
I hope our new Boss hears of this and is able to make HR more resourceful.
I hope our new Boss hears of this and is able to make HR more resourceful.
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It's tragic - once you get past the HR nonsense NATS is just about the best outfit in which to be employed as an ATCO in the UK. Yes, I know some whingers won't agree but it is true.
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As someone who has never worked for NATS, I must wholeheartedly concur with H.D.
NATS offers the best training in the world, the best platform to work as opposed to anywhere else in the world, and the best terms and conditions, certainly in Europe, possibly elsewhere.
What beats me is why the NATS HR make it so difficult for new entrants - if there is a way of making the NATS Company directors aware of this, I would be eternally gratefull if someone would appraise them.
A small minority of folk may disagree, and if they are the folk who have been trained by NATS, worked extensively within NATS and then they have gone elsewhere, they are the people who have the right to reply.
The rest have an opinion, but it isn't worth a jot.
NATS offers the best training in the world, the best platform to work as opposed to anywhere else in the world, and the best terms and conditions, certainly in Europe, possibly elsewhere.
What beats me is why the NATS HR make it so difficult for new entrants - if there is a way of making the NATS Company directors aware of this, I would be eternally gratefull if someone would appraise them.
A small minority of folk may disagree, and if they are the folk who have been trained by NATS, worked extensively within NATS and then they have gone elsewhere, they are the people who have the right to reply.
The rest have an opinion, but it isn't worth a jot.
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NATS offers the best training in the world, the best platform to work as opposed to anywhere else in the world, and the best terms and conditions, certainly in Europe, possibly elsewhere.
niknak
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No, of course I haven't, but I suppose that you haven't either.
My point is, that supposing you can get through the selection procedure and validate, you can have a go at working anywhere, which was precisely what H.D was aluding to.
My point is, that supposing you can get through the selection procedure and validate, you can have a go at working anywhere, which was precisely what H.D was aluding to.
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I've had more than my fair share of woes with NATS HR (Course 201, DAT/S) but now that i'm in it's a different story. Our induction week went off without a hitch, they were incredibly efficient in it's handling. NATS' new chairman is believed to be making some big changes, so hopefully the pre-induction HR experience will improve.
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I suppose you've had experiences with all the other ATC providers in the world
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Jerricho, I admire you, having had experiences with all the ATC providers in the world...
Seriously though, this "worlds best practice", "best ATC provider" rubbish is getting on my nerves (I used to work for an ATC provider with this attitude, had enough of 'em pretty soon...)
There are different conditions/circumstances ATC is being run under, depending on where it is being provided, so you can't compare on a one to one basis.
ATC in Europe doesn't evolve around the way it is being done in the UK.
I could throw around some weight too and state that we are the most productive, have the third most TFC absolutely and the most TFC relatively in Europe (based on stats).
And I've worked for more than one ATC provider too, but not for all of them...
Seriously though, this "worlds best practice", "best ATC provider" rubbish is getting on my nerves (I used to work for an ATC provider with this attitude, had enough of 'em pretty soon...)
There are different conditions/circumstances ATC is being run under, depending on where it is being provided, so you can't compare on a one to one basis.
ATC in Europe doesn't evolve around the way it is being done in the UK.
I could throw around some weight too and state that we are the most productive, have the third most TFC absolutely and the most TFC relatively in Europe (based on stats).
And I've worked for more than one ATC provider too, but not for all of them...
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NATS training is held in high regard by many the world over. Direct comparisons are not totally correct agreed, but the exposure given to NATS trainees when I did my course was very comprehensive (Flying Training, Airline Fam course and Fam Flights) combined with the fact that Ab-initios were started off with Tower training (and yes I know direct streaming has begun which changes all that) and sent out for 9 weeks of talking to real traffic as part of the course. This before setting a foot to your final unit for training. Compare this to six months in a school then being sent to a unit. And on leaving Bournemouth you still know nothing. Better than 5/8ths of nothing!). Also, and I'm not sure of the numbers, but how many other countries have sent their staff to train in Bournemouth? (There were Danish and Antiguan courses when I was there.) And before the brakes were applied, Nav Canada seemed very receptive to accepting NATS controllers for their Experienced Controller program.
Throw around as much "weight" as you feel necessary for your "willy waving". NATS isn't the be and end all of ATS providers in the world, and Europe doesn evolve (or was the word you were looking for "revolve"?) around the way it is done in the UK. But the training provided is of a very high calibre. And they have many MANY years experience with training. (or am I leaving this open to comments about Dinosaurs? )
Edited for spelling
I could throw around some weight too and state that we are the most productive, have the third most TFC absolutely and the most TFC relatively in Europe (based on stats).
)Edited for spelling
Last edited by Jerricho; 12th Sep 2004 at 17:27.
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(Flying Training, Airline Fam course and Fam Flights) combined with the fact that Ab-initios were started off with Tower training (and yes I know direct streaming has begun which changes all that) and sent out for 9 weeks of talking to real traffic as part of the course.
But the training provided is of a very high calibre. And they have many MANY years experience with training.
Throw around as much "weight" as you feel necessary for your "willy waving".
I have, and would agree HD and Niknak pretty much hit the nail on the head.
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Notice you fail to address
Pray tell, who did you train with?
Also, and I'm not sure of the numbers, but how many other countries have sent their staff to train in Bournemouth? (There were Danish and Antiguan courses when I was there.) And before the brakes were applied, Nav Canada seemed very receptive to accepting NATS controllers for their Experienced Controller program.
Ohcirrej
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Spuds, not trying to get into a pissing competition with you mate! I'll admit, got a bit carried away. I haven't trained with Swisscontrol/Skyguide, and I guess you haven't trained with NATS. From my experience with them and having spoken to guys and gals from all over the world, their training is held in high regard (and a great story I heard it before I left the UK was somebody in NATS said "We're sick of training Canadian controllers for free!)
I do have to smile about your comment "the world leader" blah, blah, blah. Check the mission statement of just about any ATS in the world, it'll be in there.
I do have to smile about your comment "the world leader" blah, blah, blah. Check the mission statement of just about any ATS in the world, it'll be in there.
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Jerricho,
No worries mate (or "budday").
Don't mean to show off either, just trying to put things into perspective.
My point is simply, that there are many decent ATC providers around, who offer excellent training and conditions.
And re the "world's best practice" thingy I'm just a bit allergic to that, because I used to work for a company with that kind of self esteem, and the experience was poo.
No worries mate (or "budday").
Don't mean to show off either, just trying to put things into perspective.
My point is simply, that there are many decent ATC providers around, who offer excellent training and conditions.
And re the "world's best practice" thingy I'm just a bit allergic to that, because I used to work for a company with that kind of self esteem, and the experience was poo.
Last edited by Spuds McKenzie; 14th Sep 2004 at 04:37.
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WF is back (fuer heute)
BBM,
where do I start? Haven't posted/looked at Pprune for a while, the last 5 years have been far too painfull. (Jerrico and others may understand as I've griped about this a lot on & off-forum) Apart from sympathising completely with you BBM, I'd suggest that the softly-softly approach is probably the only way to handle it, or HR will take it personally and exclude you, let alone "blacklist" you.
I applied in 1998 when I was a "young un". 2 Cycles of application completed unsuccesfully by 2000, and then the system got the jitters post 9-11. Sat the tests and interview in Early 2002 for the 3rd time and then was told to come back for a "near miss" in 3 months time. 10 months later and I hadn't heard. Naturally, anxious to become an ATCO and not being able to watch all my other options & opportunities slipping away as I was hanging on for NATS.... I wrote to HR, the Business Manager and even to the CEO of NATS expressing my dissapointment at the slowness of the process & lack of communication. Within a month, I had a letter inviting me to interview (which happened 12 months after the original one), did very well (feedback told me so), but after the 1-1 interview (no personell test or computer test 2nd time round) was rejected for not being "committed enough" (feedback told me that too) and too management orientated (due to past jobs - so should have taken the dole/worked in Burger King to impress them).
Conclusion? Well, tarred with a brush springs to mind. I now wish I'd just waited until HR felt kind enough to offer a 2nd interview, instead of reminding those HR chaps to let their recruits know what's going on (and their CEO). I doubt that was forgotten when my interview was "analysed", as applying for a job for 5 years, waiting a year for a second interview, being prepared to leave a well paid career & sell up & ship my family to Bournemouth for the chance to train as an ATCO wasn't commitment enough... hence you might understand why I feel I wasn't given a fair verdict - and there is no impartial appeal process, so tough luck. Letters/Phone calls won't do you any good then, they've made a decision, they are right, end of the matter. Where's the logic in their decision? They certainly can't back it up with facts (and they won't check the ones you provide either).
My view - give them a phone call and say plenty of nice things. Rock the boat and you will fall out. Not the people who are making the muck-ups of things. For other applicants sake, and that of NATS, I hope that HR are given a huge shake-up. Imagine if the HR dept of a major organisation such as BA/Civil Service/IBM couldn't run a decent recruitment process......oh, but then there's NATS.
Shame to see that I was not an isolated case with recruitment problems from your HR dept. I work for the Gvt. and even they are more efficient!
Certainly left me with a very bad taste in my mouth and I'll be taking this with me until my last day. Robbed by one man's opinion, which he couldn't back up or justify.
WF
P.S. Hope you have better luck with the HR lotto than I did...
where do I start? Haven't posted/looked at Pprune for a while, the last 5 years have been far too painfull. (Jerrico and others may understand as I've griped about this a lot on & off-forum) Apart from sympathising completely with you BBM, I'd suggest that the softly-softly approach is probably the only way to handle it, or HR will take it personally and exclude you, let alone "blacklist" you.
I applied in 1998 when I was a "young un". 2 Cycles of application completed unsuccesfully by 2000, and then the system got the jitters post 9-11. Sat the tests and interview in Early 2002 for the 3rd time and then was told to come back for a "near miss" in 3 months time. 10 months later and I hadn't heard. Naturally, anxious to become an ATCO and not being able to watch all my other options & opportunities slipping away as I was hanging on for NATS.... I wrote to HR, the Business Manager and even to the CEO of NATS expressing my dissapointment at the slowness of the process & lack of communication. Within a month, I had a letter inviting me to interview (which happened 12 months after the original one), did very well (feedback told me so), but after the 1-1 interview (no personell test or computer test 2nd time round) was rejected for not being "committed enough" (feedback told me that too) and too management orientated (due to past jobs - so should have taken the dole/worked in Burger King to impress them).
Conclusion? Well, tarred with a brush springs to mind. I now wish I'd just waited until HR felt kind enough to offer a 2nd interview, instead of reminding those HR chaps to let their recruits know what's going on (and their CEO). I doubt that was forgotten when my interview was "analysed", as applying for a job for 5 years, waiting a year for a second interview, being prepared to leave a well paid career & sell up & ship my family to Bournemouth for the chance to train as an ATCO wasn't commitment enough... hence you might understand why I feel I wasn't given a fair verdict - and there is no impartial appeal process, so tough luck. Letters/Phone calls won't do you any good then, they've made a decision, they are right, end of the matter. Where's the logic in their decision? They certainly can't back it up with facts (and they won't check the ones you provide either).
My view - give them a phone call and say plenty of nice things. Rock the boat and you will fall out. Not the people who are making the muck-ups of things. For other applicants sake, and that of NATS, I hope that HR are given a huge shake-up. Imagine if the HR dept of a major organisation such as BA/Civil Service/IBM couldn't run a decent recruitment process......oh, but then there's NATS.
Shame to see that I was not an isolated case with recruitment problems from your HR dept. I work for the Gvt. and even they are more efficient!
Certainly left me with a very bad taste in my mouth and I'll be taking this with me until my last day. Robbed by one man's opinion, which he couldn't back up or justify.
WF
P.S. Hope you have better luck with the HR lotto than I did...
