Avice regarding the manchester LLR
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: UK.
Avice regarding the manchester LLR
Hi all. I wonder could one of you guys from manchester/liverpool answer this one for me. I am not a pilot but do fly with a mate. and would like to fly down the Manchester LLR routing from liverpool to liverpool via the LLR south bound. would this be permissible seeing that we would not be transiting from point A to point B. I would like to know before I ask my mate to have a go.
Regards Nick.
Regards Nick.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: By the big Teapot
magpienja.
There's no reason at all why you can't fly the LLR in the way you state. The part of the LLR rules you quote are designed to stop people from, let's say, orbiting over their house or similar. As you can imagine, this would be quite hazardous to other aircraft transiting the route in a restricted piece of airspace both laterally and vertically. Your pilot friend has probably flown up and down the LLR many times but if you'd like to see some more detail about the route you'll find it here....
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/299/DAP_ACD_ManLowLev.pdf
Spiney
There's no reason at all why you can't fly the LLR in the way you state. The part of the LLR rules you quote are designed to stop people from, let's say, orbiting over their house or similar. As you can imagine, this would be quite hazardous to other aircraft transiting the route in a restricted piece of airspace both laterally and vertically. Your pilot friend has probably flown up and down the LLR many times but if you'd like to see some more detail about the route you'll find it here....
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/299/DAP_ACD_ManLowLev.pdf
Spiney
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From: CYQT
magpienga
Yes, it's easily done. Departing Liverpool VFR to the north, leave the CTZ at Seaforth VRP if 27 is in use, or Kirkby VRP if 09. On leaving the zone simply turn right and head off towards the northern end of the LLR.
Now; when to change frequency! If you departed 27 and left the zone at Seaforth I would stay with Liverpool APR until east of Kirkby. Simply because Kirkby is the standard VFR joining point for Liverpool traffic from the north and therefore you'll get relevant traffic information. Once to the east of Kirkby you should advise Liv APR you are leaving the frequency, select 7000 on the box and LISTEN OUT on 119.4 or 119.52. You can if you wish stay with Liverpool APR but a couple of things to remember; we don't have the Manchester QNH and we're probably not talking to any of the other traffic that may be in the LLR.
The standard VFR joining points from the south are Oulton Park VRP (27) or Chester Racecourse VRP (09). You should give Liverpool 5 minutes notice of your intentions to rejoin the CTZ at which point you should receive your joining clearance.
The standard join at Liverpool is not above 1500' Liverpool QNH. Be careful if you are still in the LLR when you receive your joining clearance. You must still fly not above 1250' Manchester QNH until you have left the LLR.
Incidentally, when you ring up and book out on a local detail there's no need to ask permission for this route. Just book out "local" via Seaforth / Kirkby. All we care about is where you are leaving the CTZ, not what you get up to outside it!!
Yes, it's easily done. Departing Liverpool VFR to the north, leave the CTZ at Seaforth VRP if 27 is in use, or Kirkby VRP if 09. On leaving the zone simply turn right and head off towards the northern end of the LLR.
Now; when to change frequency! If you departed 27 and left the zone at Seaforth I would stay with Liverpool APR until east of Kirkby. Simply because Kirkby is the standard VFR joining point for Liverpool traffic from the north and therefore you'll get relevant traffic information. Once to the east of Kirkby you should advise Liv APR you are leaving the frequency, select 7000 on the box and LISTEN OUT on 119.4 or 119.52. You can if you wish stay with Liverpool APR but a couple of things to remember; we don't have the Manchester QNH and we're probably not talking to any of the other traffic that may be in the LLR.
The standard VFR joining points from the south are Oulton Park VRP (27) or Chester Racecourse VRP (09). You should give Liverpool 5 minutes notice of your intentions to rejoin the CTZ at which point you should receive your joining clearance.
The standard join at Liverpool is not above 1500' Liverpool QNH. Be careful if you are still in the LLR when you receive your joining clearance. You must still fly not above 1250' Manchester QNH until you have left the LLR.
Incidentally, when you ring up and book out on a local detail there's no need to ask permission for this route. Just book out "local" via Seaforth / Kirkby. All we care about is where you are leaving the CTZ, not what you get up to outside it!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: UK.
Thanks guys you make it very clear, I will ask my mate if he would like to give it a go then, he has flown out of Liverpool for some years but never used the LLR, spiney yes I have read the CAA man lowlev, interesting stuff.
Regards Nick.
Regards Nick.
- 119.4 is a Manchester Tower frequency
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From: CYQT
Then I suggest that http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/299/DAP_ACD_ManLowLev.pdf is updated!
After all, why would a Liverpool ATCO know (or indeed care) what the Manchester TWR frequencies are!
(I'll bet you they don't know ours!)
After all, why would a Liverpool ATCO know (or indeed care) what the Manchester TWR frequencies are!
(I'll bet you they don't know ours!)
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: North West UK
I'll bet you they don't know ours!
How are the EUJets into Manston behaving? If it's any consolation we get the same with a couple of other airfield's traffic occaionally
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: England
Its even easier than others have suggested, ask Lpl atc for a non standard routing and so long as theres no conflicts they will give it if they can.
Suggest you go out the zone at Burtonwood vrp top of the llr and back in at Oulton Park vrp (whi ndb) at the bottom.
Stay with Lpl app dont trouble Manch neither will give you better than a FIS with the qualification - " look out for traffic unknown to atc ".
The suggestion that the llr stops you orbiting your house is not correct. Ive done it many a time and see folks doing it often. obviously can get busy so a good look out is essential and remember its not above 1250 Manc qnh and bearing in mind the glide clear rule not below 1250 either.
A trip just down the llr is not very exciting- so whats so interesting about Warrington apart from my garden!
Have fun Davet- resident eggp and Middle of the llr!
Suggest you go out the zone at Burtonwood vrp top of the llr and back in at Oulton Park vrp (whi ndb) at the bottom.
Stay with Lpl app dont trouble Manch neither will give you better than a FIS with the qualification - " look out for traffic unknown to atc ".
The suggestion that the llr stops you orbiting your house is not correct. Ive done it many a time and see folks doing it often. obviously can get busy so a good look out is essential and remember its not above 1250 Manc qnh and bearing in mind the glide clear rule not below 1250 either.
A trip just down the llr is not very exciting- so whats so interesting about Warrington apart from my garden!
Have fun Davet- resident eggp and Middle of the llr!
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: By the big Teapot
Davidt.
Re your comment. ' The suggestion that the llr stops you orbiting your house is not correct'. is not correct! I didn't say it stops you orbiting over your house. What I did say is that is what that particular line in the LLR rules and conditions is designed to do! If you want to disregard it then it's up to you, you might want to think about the other people using the route though!
Spiney
Re your comment. ' The suggestion that the llr stops you orbiting your house is not correct'. is not correct! I didn't say it stops you orbiting over your house. What I did say is that is what that particular line in the LLR rules and conditions is designed to do! If you want to disregard it then it's up to you, you might want to think about the other people using the route though!
Spiney
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: England
Spiney
Then we both agree that its perfectly lawfull to orbit in the llr.
You think its a bad idea, I do not subject to keeping good look out, correct hight etc all of which take care of concerns for other
users. When ever I've done so I've always been in contact with Lpl App and told them I intend orbit for sight seeing, whos only comment has been "tell us when your orbits complete " or similar.
Obviously my view is shared by the many I see from my back garden going round in circles.
And guess what I did on my first ever trial flight all those years ago.
The llr is hardly the M25 on a busy day one or two per hour rising to a peak on a summer evening when all the Barton boys are going home of every 10 mins or so just before sun set. There are a lot more hazardous places ie between London and Stanstead the honey pots of LAM, BNN and BPK on a sunny day there are folk every which way, if ever a place cried out for a traffic system!
Then we both agree that its perfectly lawfull to orbit in the llr.
You think its a bad idea, I do not subject to keeping good look out, correct hight etc all of which take care of concerns for other
users. When ever I've done so I've always been in contact with Lpl App and told them I intend orbit for sight seeing, whos only comment has been "tell us when your orbits complete " or similar.
Obviously my view is shared by the many I see from my back garden going round in circles.
And guess what I did on my first ever trial flight all those years ago.
The llr is hardly the M25 on a busy day one or two per hour rising to a peak on a summer evening when all the Barton boys are going home of every 10 mins or so just before sun set. There are a lot more hazardous places ie between London and Stanstead the honey pots of LAM, BNN and BPK on a sunny day there are folk every which way, if ever a place cried out for a traffic system!
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: North West UK
Davidt, your post has highlighted that some pilots, yourself included, are talking to Liverpool Appr in the LLR - is this because 119.85 is a quieter frequency?
At the moment 119.52 is the 'designated' frequency for LLR traffic - as a regular user I listen out on that frequency as I know that this is where I expect the transiting traffic to transmit.
Spiney is working on proposals for amending the LLR service, but out of interest would you agree that it's best for all traffic in the route to be on a common frequency?
At the moment 119.52 is the 'designated' frequency for LLR traffic - as a regular user I listen out on that frequency as I know that this is where I expect the transiting traffic to transmit.
Spiney is working on proposals for amending the LLR service, but out of interest would you agree that it's best for all traffic in the route to be on a common frequency?
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: By the big Teapot
Davidt.
Well, no we don't both agree it's lawful because the rules relating to the LLR are designed to prohibit it. They are couched in very poor terms though. The fact that people do orbit in the LLR doesn't mean it's legal! If that was the case I could drive up and down the motorway at 150mph! It's illegal but other people do it so it must be O.K. You say you work Liverpool in the LLR, well they may well be not so familiar with the rules cos they're not the designated agency to be working traffic in the LLR. I fly the LLR myself regularly and it can be very difficult to avoid traffic orbiting in the route due to the fact it's only 4nm wide and everyone wants to fly at 1250ft to get the best of the alight clear rule. I used to be a LARS controller and local pilot flying in the BPK, LAM,BNN area and what you say is true regarding the 'rat runs' under the London TMA. If you've flown down there ever tried avoiding someone orbiting over the disused at BNN who keeps turning into you in a C152 and you don't know if he's seen you or not? That's the point I'm making about the LLR. It's the other guy who's put in the difficult situation if you bend the rules.
Spiney
Well, no we don't both agree it's lawful because the rules relating to the LLR are designed to prohibit it. They are couched in very poor terms though. The fact that people do orbit in the LLR doesn't mean it's legal! If that was the case I could drive up and down the motorway at 150mph! It's illegal but other people do it so it must be O.K. You say you work Liverpool in the LLR, well they may well be not so familiar with the rules cos they're not the designated agency to be working traffic in the LLR. I fly the LLR myself regularly and it can be very difficult to avoid traffic orbiting in the route due to the fact it's only 4nm wide and everyone wants to fly at 1250ft to get the best of the alight clear rule. I used to be a LARS controller and local pilot flying in the BPK, LAM,BNN area and what you say is true regarding the 'rat runs' under the London TMA. If you've flown down there ever tried avoiding someone orbiting over the disused at BNN who keeps turning into you in a C152 and you don't know if he's seen you or not? That's the point I'm making about the LLR. It's the other guy who's put in the difficult situation if you bend the rules.
Spiney
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: CYQT
From a personal point of view, no I'm not interested in working traffic in the LLR, Manch have a far better picture of what's going on in there. Besides, the radar coverage from Liverpool aint brilliant at 1250' or less in the LLR, there may be traffic we can't see!
Anyone I'm working, be it a local flight or transit, gets transferred to 119.52 if it is their intention to transit the LLR.
HOWEVER! Always thought it "interesting" that the LLR is managed by Manch APR even though it's directly below the 27 approach to Liverpool
Still, it's less traffic on my frequency I suppose..........
Anyone I'm working, be it a local flight or transit, gets transferred to 119.52 if it is their intention to transit the LLR.
HOWEVER! Always thought it "interesting" that the LLR is managed by Manch APR even though it's directly below the 27 approach to Liverpool
Still, it's less traffic on my frequency I suppose..........
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: By the big Teapot
Squibbler.
Don't blame you for getting rid of traffic in the LLR to Manchester. If I were working Liverpool APP I wouldn't want to be working in a confined area were some of the traffic is working Manchester and some not. I wish I knew why Manchester was made the controlling agency but it's lost in the mists of time! I was working at Liverpool in the 1970's, (as a very small child of course)! No-one knew then! As squadgy says, I've been asked to look into a better way of providing a service in the LLR, and I've had some feedback from you guys. I'd like to say it's going somewhere but at present it's all disappeared down a black hole at the Directorate of Airspace policy so I'm not holding my breath!
Spiney
P.S.Are you chaps getting a nice pay rise for all that extra traffic?
Don't blame you for getting rid of traffic in the LLR to Manchester. If I were working Liverpool APP I wouldn't want to be working in a confined area were some of the traffic is working Manchester and some not. I wish I knew why Manchester was made the controlling agency but it's lost in the mists of time! I was working at Liverpool in the 1970's, (as a very small child of course)! No-one knew then! As squadgy says, I've been asked to look into a better way of providing a service in the LLR, and I've had some feedback from you guys. I'd like to say it's going somewhere but at present it's all disappeared down a black hole at the Directorate of Airspace policy so I'm not holding my breath!
Spiney
P.S.Are you chaps getting a nice pay rise for all that extra traffic?
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From: UK
I wish I knew why Manchester was made the controlling agency but it's lost in the mists of time!
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: By the big Teapot
Spekesoftly
Yes, sounds very likely. Interestingly, (well, not that interestingly)! Manchester are still required to take a 1000ft above the ceiling of the route, whilst Liverpool can, I believe, descend to 1800' QNH above it. Now you mention it I do recall that it was possible to receive a VFR clearance through WHI not above 1500ft whilst 'rule 21' Manchester was always SVFR at that time so it all adds up. You sound like a man with a lot of time in!! Ever work in the old 'lighthouse' TWR?
Spiney
Yes, sounds very likely. Interestingly, (well, not that interestingly)! Manchester are still required to take a 1000ft above the ceiling of the route, whilst Liverpool can, I believe, descend to 1800' QNH above it. Now you mention it I do recall that it was possible to receive a VFR clearance through WHI not above 1500ft whilst 'rule 21' Manchester was always SVFR at that time so it all adds up. You sound like a man with a lot of time in!! Ever work in the old 'lighthouse' TWR?
Spiney
!!
