Is every one still wanting to strike?
Guest
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Is every one still wanting to strike?
Things have gone a bit quiet about this over the last few days.
Has the final offer - accompanied by the unions notes and explanations - made anyone rethink their (perhaps hotheaded) initial reactions?
Are the unions reasons for not striking reasonable?
If we were to strike, what would bring YOU back to work? (concrete, realistic suggestions and figures).
The ballot will be out in the next couple of days and I'm still pretty confused as to what to do.
------------------
...is it VFR or IFR, is it day or is it night??
P.S. I'm not the real J. McKenna, though my entire knowledge of aviation law is down to this man!
[This message has been edited by JMcKenna73 (edited 18 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JMcKenna73 (edited 18 October 2000).]
Has the final offer - accompanied by the unions notes and explanations - made anyone rethink their (perhaps hotheaded) initial reactions?
Are the unions reasons for not striking reasonable?
If we were to strike, what would bring YOU back to work? (concrete, realistic suggestions and figures).
The ballot will be out in the next couple of days and I'm still pretty confused as to what to do.
------------------
...is it VFR or IFR, is it day or is it night??
P.S. I'm not the real J. McKenna, though my entire knowledge of aviation law is down to this man!
[This message has been edited by JMcKenna73 (edited 18 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JMcKenna73 (edited 18 October 2000).]
Guest
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possibly controversial but i would go back if the new bonus schemes, which quite frankly are dangerous, were scrapped to be replaced with a 5 or 6% rise in basic plus an additional WHOLE spine point for ALL OJTIs (which is less than the "up to" 11.5% currently on offer). However, in order to minimise the chances of a strike that may not be really wanted, urge anyone who is thinking of doing so, NOT to protest vote- if you're not prepared to strike with all that that entails then take what's on offer.
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I agree get-em
I haven't seen the union explanations, but from what i have heard the bonuses are unnessessarily complicated.
As said above 6% rise in basic and a garuanteed payment for ojti (no conditions/targets etc) would probably get my vote. However I honestly doubt that there will be any change in the offer.
If we do vote no, and as the offer stands I believe we should, then one of the reasons should be because the bonuses are potentiallly unsafe.
Why?
Just imagine what you "could" do to reduce delays, as a ground, tower, approach, area etc controller, and how "these" actions would endanger safety: [approach at a single runway unit packs the inbounds 3nm apart to achieve his target coz the shuttle is complaining about his number in sequence-tower wants 5nm gaps to launch outbounds-apc says thats not MY target/problem], thats besides the other potentially divisive, dangerous and untenable problems that will arise.
I don't believe that any of us are daft, phsychotic or UNPROFFESIONAL enough to let things get that far, but are these bonuses a sign of things to come(post ppp)?
So even with Xmas coming, and it would be great to spend the back payment on the kids,
I believe we must send a message to nats saying that we want a fair offer, not one that is unrealistic, UNSAFE, and from which we don't see the money for ANOTHER eight months.
And yes i am prepared for what may come after the vote, is anyone else?????
I haven't seen the union explanations, but from what i have heard the bonuses are unnessessarily complicated.
As said above 6% rise in basic and a garuanteed payment for ojti (no conditions/targets etc) would probably get my vote. However I honestly doubt that there will be any change in the offer.
If we do vote no, and as the offer stands I believe we should, then one of the reasons should be because the bonuses are potentiallly unsafe.
Why?
Just imagine what you "could" do to reduce delays, as a ground, tower, approach, area etc controller, and how "these" actions would endanger safety: [approach at a single runway unit packs the inbounds 3nm apart to achieve his target coz the shuttle is complaining about his number in sequence-tower wants 5nm gaps to launch outbounds-apc says thats not MY target/problem], thats besides the other potentially divisive, dangerous and untenable problems that will arise.
I don't believe that any of us are daft, phsychotic or UNPROFFESIONAL enough to let things get that far, but are these bonuses a sign of things to come(post ppp)?
So even with Xmas coming, and it would be great to spend the back payment on the kids,
I believe we must send a message to nats saying that we want a fair offer, not one that is unrealistic, UNSAFE, and from which we don't see the money for ANOTHER eight months.
And yes i am prepared for what may come after the vote, is anyone else?????
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Wanting to strike? no definitely not WANTING to, but certainly prepared to if that's what it takes to get a better deal.
I agree that stupid bonuses are asking for trouble.
The VFR flyers will be shafted even more so as not to add an extra few seconds delay to the IFR's.
The temptation will be there to apply artitstic interpretation to airborne times (at units that are not auto DM'ed) in order to appear to knock a minute of the actual delay.
Our professional pride is what makes us provide the best service possible often with the handicap of reduced staffing or faulty equipment.
The basis of the bonuses on offer is really "OK so you want more money, well it's gonna be a lot busier, there won't be any extra staff, & we don't want to spend any money on equipment either. Oh & by the way you'll have to shift 'em quicker too."
5% on pay & related allowances consolidated & pensionable is not an unreasonable claim. More than enough money has already been tabled to pay this. If we don't stick out for that come the next pay round we'll be fighting doubly hard even just to stand still. & remember that's only just over a year away now.
I'm not an OJTI so I can't comment on that part of the deal.
I agree that stupid bonuses are asking for trouble.
The VFR flyers will be shafted even more so as not to add an extra few seconds delay to the IFR's.
The temptation will be there to apply artitstic interpretation to airborne times (at units that are not auto DM'ed) in order to appear to knock a minute of the actual delay.
Our professional pride is what makes us provide the best service possible often with the handicap of reduced staffing or faulty equipment.
The basis of the bonuses on offer is really "OK so you want more money, well it's gonna be a lot busier, there won't be any extra staff, & we don't want to spend any money on equipment either. Oh & by the way you'll have to shift 'em quicker too."
5% on pay & related allowances consolidated & pensionable is not an unreasonable claim. More than enough money has already been tabled to pay this. If we don't stick out for that come the next pay round we'll be fighting doubly hard even just to stand still. & remember that's only just over a year away now.
I'm not an OJTI so I can't comment on that part of the deal.
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I think it's all summed up by saying.......
"NATS management is UNPROFESSIONAL"
The problem is, and always has been, the fact that the vast majority of NATS managers are less qualified, and less intelligent, than the staff they are supposesd to "manage".
As for the pay deal, who knows.....but I, for one, will be voting AGAINST, and happy to support that decision. However, if industrial action IS taken, be prepared for the brown tongued brigade - who don't appreciate what a MAJORITY decision is.
"NATS management is UNPROFESSIONAL"
The problem is, and always has been, the fact that the vast majority of NATS managers are less qualified, and less intelligent, than the staff they are supposesd to "manage".
As for the pay deal, who knows.....but I, for one, will be voting AGAINST, and happy to support that decision. However, if industrial action IS taken, be prepared for the brown tongued brigade - who don't appreciate what a MAJORITY decision is.
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Following a recent visit from the Union, it appears that we are being left to make up our own mind, and although the pay offer stinks, OJTI and all, if we reject even a part of the offer, we're rejecting the lot. If we do then choose to walk out, the Sun / Mirror (Insert tabloid sensationalist newspaper here) will show what the pay deal means to an ATCO 1 at LATCC, with an aeon of service, and this will be rather a lot of money. We all know that this kind of money is only available to a select few, but the General public do not and will fall in line with the Government / Dictatorship. For this reason any industrial action we take over this insubstantial and really rather half arsed bonus deal is very likely to go against public opinion.
Industrial action taken against PPP however, is likely to be a completely different matter. If not even a full strike, imagine the knock on effects of a work to rule in LATCC, Heathrow, and Gatwick.
Think about what is really the more important long term issue
Industrial action taken against PPP however, is likely to be a completely different matter. If not even a full strike, imagine the knock on effects of a work to rule in LATCC, Heathrow, and Gatwick.
Think about what is really the more important long term issue
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I received the ballot paper this morning along with the explanatory notes. I've seen the samples that the union put out showing what some (very few) will get if we accept this offer.
The fact that almost half of the rise is made up of non-consolidated bonuses, and therefore doesn't go toward either our next pay rise or our pensions is a disgrace. The money is obviously there but NATS don't want to/can't give it to us, even thought they have recognised (to a fashion) that we have a valid claim.
As for the OJTI part of the offer, who is going to keep track of who trains who, when and for how long? Are we all going to be falling over ourselves to sit with a 6-weeker? What about those units where there isn't a great deal of training? If you don't spend 50% of your time training you don't get the cash.
Then there's the question of the "introductory lump sum" (BRIBE). 2% of salary (non-pensionable) for accepting the offer now. What is going on? If the Treasury will let NATS bribe and cajole us into accepting this, why not just do it properly? If the offer including bribes and bonuses is worth on average 9% over 21 months, I am sure we would all accept say 8% over the same time-scale as long as it was consolidated and pensionable. Wouldn't you agree?
The fact that NATS say that these bonuses are easily achievable is neither here nor there. Why should 0.5% of this rise be for the on-time commencement of NERC OCT? About 75% (a guesstimate) of NATS staff have absolutely nothing to do with NERC and wouldn't want to if there lives depended on it. So why is it a string attached to the offer to NATS staff as a whole?
So, where do we go from here? The ballot ends on 3 Nov. Do we reject the offer and then have a ballot on any industrial action? Or do we accept the offer now and concentrate on the spectre of PPP? It seems fairly clear to me that the greater of the two evils is PPP and we should do everything we can to stop it. After all, what is the use of a 10%+ pay rise now if in 12 months time we're being scr*wed by whoever wins the raffle for NATS and 10% of us are out of a job and the pension scheme is drained?
Think long and think hard people. My ballot won't be going in the box just yet. This is the most important decision you'll have to make for a long time. Make sure you're confident its the right one.
The fact that almost half of the rise is made up of non-consolidated bonuses, and therefore doesn't go toward either our next pay rise or our pensions is a disgrace. The money is obviously there but NATS don't want to/can't give it to us, even thought they have recognised (to a fashion) that we have a valid claim.
As for the OJTI part of the offer, who is going to keep track of who trains who, when and for how long? Are we all going to be falling over ourselves to sit with a 6-weeker? What about those units where there isn't a great deal of training? If you don't spend 50% of your time training you don't get the cash.
Then there's the question of the "introductory lump sum" (BRIBE). 2% of salary (non-pensionable) for accepting the offer now. What is going on? If the Treasury will let NATS bribe and cajole us into accepting this, why not just do it properly? If the offer including bribes and bonuses is worth on average 9% over 21 months, I am sure we would all accept say 8% over the same time-scale as long as it was consolidated and pensionable. Wouldn't you agree?
The fact that NATS say that these bonuses are easily achievable is neither here nor there. Why should 0.5% of this rise be for the on-time commencement of NERC OCT? About 75% (a guesstimate) of NATS staff have absolutely nothing to do with NERC and wouldn't want to if there lives depended on it. So why is it a string attached to the offer to NATS staff as a whole?
So, where do we go from here? The ballot ends on 3 Nov. Do we reject the offer and then have a ballot on any industrial action? Or do we accept the offer now and concentrate on the spectre of PPP? It seems fairly clear to me that the greater of the two evils is PPP and we should do everything we can to stop it. After all, what is the use of a 10%+ pay rise now if in 12 months time we're being scr*wed by whoever wins the raffle for NATS and 10% of us are out of a job and the pension scheme is drained?
Think long and think hard people. My ballot won't be going in the box just yet. This is the most important decision you'll have to make for a long time. Make sure you're confident its the right one.
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As I understand it, and I admit I'm no expert, we can't strike because we're being privatised. We can only strike against changes in conditions/offered changes etc., not for the fact that we don't want our company sold. Anyone feeling expert care to disagree?
(and I'm still voting no, and if it goes through anyway(again), at least I can say I don't want the extra money and stop training)
(and I'm still voting no, and if it goes through anyway(again), at least I can say I don't want the extra money and stop training)
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Regarding the headlines in The Sun & Mirror and ATCO 1 pay.
What if we refuse the 11.5% on the grounds that the bonuse are a dangerous road to go down, letting profits and pay become the master of all things right & proper (read SAFE)? We apppear happy to accept less than the current totals if they are divied-up in a fairer, more agreeable fashion. The Sun & Mirror can't criticise us for greed if we accept less than is on the table and if we highlight the fact that we are refusing the offer on the grounds of potential safety & intrusive commercialism then it highlights the adverse effects of PPP far more than IPMS could ever hope to have achieved through the extensive & vastly under-rated, under-appreciated lobbying which they have been carrying out tirelessly on your behalf. Comments, anyone (preferably not leading the thread down a union-bashing road-there are other times & places for that if you must)?
What if we refuse the 11.5% on the grounds that the bonuse are a dangerous road to go down, letting profits and pay become the master of all things right & proper (read SAFE)? We apppear happy to accept less than the current totals if they are divied-up in a fairer, more agreeable fashion. The Sun & Mirror can't criticise us for greed if we accept less than is on the table and if we highlight the fact that we are refusing the offer on the grounds of potential safety & intrusive commercialism then it highlights the adverse effects of PPP far more than IPMS could ever hope to have achieved through the extensive & vastly under-rated, under-appreciated lobbying which they have been carrying out tirelessly on your behalf. Comments, anyone (preferably not leading the thread down a union-bashing road-there are other times & places for that if you must)?
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Things are a bit clearer for me now after attending a Union briefing.
According to the Union, the consolidated, pensionable pay rise that we will receive will keep us ahead of the cost of living by approx. half a per cent, so we are in effect getting a real terms rise in the value of our services (no matter how small)!
The 'bonuses' are not performance related. They have been guaranteed to pay out without us having to do anything other than what we are doing at the moment. They are just a method for us to obtain more money above the Treasury imposed limit of 3 per cent on basic pay. As this can't be seen to be given to us in the form of a 'bung', a performance related element has been introduced to keep us in line with other public sector organisations. As I said, they have been constructed to pay out without us being placed under pressure to shift additional traffic in order to meet the targets.
The Union also mentioned that if something unforeseen (though maybe not entirely unexpected) happens, i.e. another NAS breakdown occurs, and the average delay per flight goes above the target set, because this is outwith our control, the Union said that management will be amenable to re-negotiate the target delay.
Management, apparently, are keen for us to have these bonuses as any failure on their part to deliver these, after raising peoples expectations, will make things far more difficult for them (PPP or not), next time around.
As far as the OJTI payment goes, the Union said that yes, it is overly complicated, it might not work too well initially, but it is at least a foot in the door and a stepping stone to future improvements.
Bearing in mind the real terms rise that we are getting (again, no matter how small) do you consider that we as ATCOs are under valued for what we do compared to other job types within this country and tax regime? (And are rising traffic levels relevent considering that - especially at centres, both north and south of Hadrians Wall - the overwhelming majority of ATCOs do not work their rostered hours, through EGs, split night shifts etc. plus alot of the time working half hour/hour on, half hour off).
With regard to OJTI payments, why exactly are we asking for more money for something that we are contracted to do already, and for which we all agreed to under take by signing up to do this job in the first place?
Just so that you know where I'm coming from, I am not management and have no desire to be, and I have nothing (other than being a member) to do with the Union.
I am just an ordinary ATCO at a centre, valid on one of the top ten (in terms of movements) busiest sectors in the country and I am also an OJTI. I have worked both at LATCC and ScATCC.
As far as my attitude goes to the deal on offer, well, what ever they offer it will never be enough (naturally)!
Will I vote in favour of it? Yes I will.
It isn't ideal, but then I can't think of specific reasons (especially ones that would entail strike action) that can justify turning it down.
I think that what we are paid at the moment is a fair reflection of our value (though a lot of people that I know of, who know what my work entails - and who also think that I get paid a good deal less than I do at the moment - would tend to disagree).
As has been said, we need to keep public sympathy for more important things such as fighting for our terms and conditions post PPP.
Thats just my take on things, feel free to enlighten me!
------------------
...is it VFR or IFR, is it day or is it night??
P.S. I'm not the real J. McKenna, though my entire knowledge of aviation law is down to this man!
[This message has been edited by JMcKenna73 (edited 18 October 2000).]
According to the Union, the consolidated, pensionable pay rise that we will receive will keep us ahead of the cost of living by approx. half a per cent, so we are in effect getting a real terms rise in the value of our services (no matter how small)!
The 'bonuses' are not performance related. They have been guaranteed to pay out without us having to do anything other than what we are doing at the moment. They are just a method for us to obtain more money above the Treasury imposed limit of 3 per cent on basic pay. As this can't be seen to be given to us in the form of a 'bung', a performance related element has been introduced to keep us in line with other public sector organisations. As I said, they have been constructed to pay out without us being placed under pressure to shift additional traffic in order to meet the targets.
The Union also mentioned that if something unforeseen (though maybe not entirely unexpected) happens, i.e. another NAS breakdown occurs, and the average delay per flight goes above the target set, because this is outwith our control, the Union said that management will be amenable to re-negotiate the target delay.
Management, apparently, are keen for us to have these bonuses as any failure on their part to deliver these, after raising peoples expectations, will make things far more difficult for them (PPP or not), next time around.
As far as the OJTI payment goes, the Union said that yes, it is overly complicated, it might not work too well initially, but it is at least a foot in the door and a stepping stone to future improvements.
Bearing in mind the real terms rise that we are getting (again, no matter how small) do you consider that we as ATCOs are under valued for what we do compared to other job types within this country and tax regime? (And are rising traffic levels relevent considering that - especially at centres, both north and south of Hadrians Wall - the overwhelming majority of ATCOs do not work their rostered hours, through EGs, split night shifts etc. plus alot of the time working half hour/hour on, half hour off).
With regard to OJTI payments, why exactly are we asking for more money for something that we are contracted to do already, and for which we all agreed to under take by signing up to do this job in the first place?
Just so that you know where I'm coming from, I am not management and have no desire to be, and I have nothing (other than being a member) to do with the Union.
I am just an ordinary ATCO at a centre, valid on one of the top ten (in terms of movements) busiest sectors in the country and I am also an OJTI. I have worked both at LATCC and ScATCC.
As far as my attitude goes to the deal on offer, well, what ever they offer it will never be enough (naturally)!
Will I vote in favour of it? Yes I will.
It isn't ideal, but then I can't think of specific reasons (especially ones that would entail strike action) that can justify turning it down.
I think that what we are paid at the moment is a fair reflection of our value (though a lot of people that I know of, who know what my work entails - and who also think that I get paid a good deal less than I do at the moment - would tend to disagree).
As has been said, we need to keep public sympathy for more important things such as fighting for our terms and conditions post PPP.
Thats just my take on things, feel free to enlighten me!
------------------
...is it VFR or IFR, is it day or is it night??
P.S. I'm not the real J. McKenna, though my entire knowledge of aviation law is down to this man!
[This message has been edited by JMcKenna73 (edited 18 October 2000).]
Guest
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I'm fed up not getting leave unless I give six months notice, I'm fed up working twice as hard as I did two years ago, most of all I'm fed up taking more and more responsiblity knowing at the end of the day, if something goes wrong, I will be standing alone, watching management retreat as quickly as they can.
I'm fed up trying to train people to a standard I couldn't achieve if I was a trainee now in traffic levels unimaginable a few years ago. Knowing one slip from them could lose my license.
I'm fed up being told Nerc is the priority, and if we are short of staff, we will have flow control. Yet as soon as a traffic manager imposes flow control he/she is taken to task over their decision.
If management want me to take on the extra responsibilities involved with todays traffic levels, I want a lot more than 0.5% over inflation.
[This message has been edited by vertigo (edited 07 October 2000).]
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half a percent!!!! big wow. that's a whole 50p for every hundred quid you earn.
OK some of us will see more, but for me that's just £8 extra. I'll try not to spend it all at once.
I couldn't give a £uck what the press will make of the ATCO 1 figures, and agree whole heartedly with the comments of get 'em to heaven & back.
I'd be prepared to accept significantly less than 8-9% if it was properly consolidated.
OK some of us will see more, but for me that's just £8 extra. I'll try not to spend it all at once.
I couldn't give a £uck what the press will make of the ATCO 1 figures, and agree whole heartedly with the comments of get 'em to heaven & back.
I'd be prepared to accept significantly less than 8-9% if it was properly consolidated.
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Wonky. Don't suggest we reduce the separation but one way of reducing overall delays might be to stop imposing delays on sectors which are still bandoxed at night and should be open ..... at a major unit near EGLL now.
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If I had recieved my ballot form I would have!
There is obviously a conspiracy
P.S. I'm not the real J. McKenna, though my entire knowledge of aviation law is down to this man!
[This message has been edited by JMcKenna73 (edited 18 October 2000).]
There is obviously a conspiracy
P.S. I'm not the real J. McKenna, though my entire knowledge of aviation law is down to this man!
[This message has been edited by JMcKenna73 (edited 18 October 2000).]
Pegase Driver
2 six 4 : I have not seen many delays in the middle of the night . Be more precise. which sector(s) are you talking about ?
Just mention the 3 letters or the number/letter code of the sectors, we'll know which centre it is and we keep this off the papers.
Just mention the 3 letters or the number/letter code of the sectors, we'll know which centre it is and we keep this off the papers.
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Yes the pay offer is deri no stup no not enough!!!
but at the moment there are probably enough people going to vote yes that it is going to be accepted despite what the rest of the atcos not on the top of the atco two scale say.
someone said that people are not working full shifts and doing 30 mins on and hour off , that person doesn't go into tc very often does he?
the fact is, in tc they are moving 1.1 million a/c a year with the same plus or minus 2 or 3 people that they had when it opened at the beginning of the decade. Is that poor productivity or what? How many other companies can say they have coped with an almost 100% increase of traffic without growth of staff?
but at the moment there are probably enough people going to vote yes that it is going to be accepted despite what the rest of the atcos not on the top of the atco two scale say.
someone said that people are not working full shifts and doing 30 mins on and hour off , that person doesn't go into tc very often does he?
the fact is, in tc they are moving 1.1 million a/c a year with the same plus or minus 2 or 3 people that they had when it opened at the beginning of the decade. Is that poor productivity or what? How many other companies can say they have coped with an almost 100% increase of traffic without growth of staff?
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Guys and girls out there please use your vote carefully!!!
I know the pay offer is $hite but don't vote to reject if it is only a protest vote.
If we have a majority vote to reject, we've called our own bluff and will probably end up taking industrial action. None of us trully want this because we know it's a no win situation, both publically and politically.
If your not willing to strike then vote to accept!!
Remember there are bigger fish to fry - PPP
I know the pay offer is $hite but don't vote to reject if it is only a protest vote.
If we have a majority vote to reject, we've called our own bluff and will probably end up taking industrial action. None of us trully want this because we know it's a no win situation, both publically and politically.
If your not willing to strike then vote to accept!!
Remember there are bigger fish to fry - PPP