So what gets on your nerves ??
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Sorry, numpo - perhaps I should have explained. Any pilot who flies into CDG at all regularly will recognise the syndrome. It is a recognised formula, since most Paris controllers appear to be far less capable of thinking "on their feet" than their Brit counterparts. Any request, even for anything simple, receives the response "I call you back".
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Wrote to EVERY airline operating at our field and EVERY chief pilot/training capt for three years 97/98/99 inviting all crews to visit ATC for a chat,meet the troops, AND have a go on the sim.With one notable exeption ( Airtours) the white gloved ones where too busy / too tired etc to bother taking up the offer
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POOR READBACKS, such as:
Pilots, who having been given dep instructions of "after departure......" read back "after take-off......"
Also, Americans poor RT such as "clear to go" and "roger" when cleared to land.
Oh, and of course Personnel and WM/DWM's!
Pilots, who having been given dep instructions of "after departure......" read back "after take-off......"
Also, Americans poor RT such as "clear to go" and "roger" when cleared to land.
Oh, and of course Personnel and WM/DWM's!
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Pilots who, having been assigned a speed to fly, slow down without asking.
Pilots who, having been given immediate take off clearance wheels up on the preceding, wait for that traffic to make its turn after departure before rolling.
Pilots who taxy to the holding point and haven't planned on the possibility of an intersection departure and need to check the figures when they get there. If you can accept an intersection departure, offer to take it it may save you a lot of time. It may not, but you'll be thanked for the offer (by me anyway!)
Pilots who, having been given immediate take off clearance wheels up on the preceding, wait for that traffic to make its turn after departure before rolling.
Pilots who taxy to the holding point and haven't planned on the possibility of an intersection departure and need to check the figures when they get there. If you can accept an intersection departure, offer to take it it may save you a lot of time. It may not, but you'll be thanked for the offer (by me anyway!)
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HugMonster
Thanks for the explanation. It does seem to be a perennial thread through various topics that you pilots don't like Paris controllers. I've flown into CDG and Orly quite a few times on the flight deck of various airlines, British and French, and have never heard anything less than professional - but perhaps I'm lucky!!! It can be a two-way street though, as one UK-based F27 pilot I was with decided to turn off his radar heading on approach to CDG, without a by-your-leave, because he didn't like the look of the cloud in front!! Whilst I concur with his wish to avoid dodgy weather, I'm sure the Paris approach controller wondered what was happening, and I'm sure it did no good to the subsequent spacing.
Thanks for the explanation. It does seem to be a perennial thread through various topics that you pilots don't like Paris controllers. I've flown into CDG and Orly quite a few times on the flight deck of various airlines, British and French, and have never heard anything less than professional - but perhaps I'm lucky!!! It can be a two-way street though, as one UK-based F27 pilot I was with decided to turn off his radar heading on approach to CDG, without a by-your-leave, because he didn't like the look of the cloud in front!! Whilst I concur with his wish to avoid dodgy weather, I'm sure the Paris approach controller wondered what was happening, and I'm sure it did no good to the subsequent spacing.
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Believe this or not, but I swear it's true. Fairly early one morning at LHR around 20-25 years ago a US-registered 747 was given 10L (09L) for take off. As he rolled down the runway he said to me: "Tower, we've not used this runway before will you kindly run through the SID for us..."
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Sarcastic remarks from pilots after issuing instructions.
eg This morning vectoring a 737 downwind no2 to an ATP. Told him to reduce from 250kts to 210kts (not unreasonable or unsafe, I dont think), got the reply "Roger reducing to next to nothing"
eg This morning vectoring a 737 downwind no2 to an ATP. Told him to reduce from 250kts to 210kts (not unreasonable or unsafe, I dont think), got the reply "Roger reducing to next to nothing"
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Lets face it we are all under pressure!
I have so wanted to vent my spleen to pilots who appear to come out with the most obnoxious sayings at the worst possible time.
Lets face it when we are busy, they are busy. What i cannot accept is that given our years of training and experience when a pilot thinks he knows the traffic order better because he has the traffic on TCAS ( the worst RADAR ever invented). This practice of being "visual" (ie visual on TCAS ) has caused some horrendous airmisses recentley and must be stopped.
I have so wanted to vent my spleen to pilots who appear to come out with the most obnoxious sayings at the worst possible time.
Lets face it when we are busy, they are busy. What i cannot accept is that given our years of training and experience when a pilot thinks he knows the traffic order better because he has the traffic on TCAS ( the worst RADAR ever invented). This practice of being "visual" (ie visual on TCAS ) has caused some horrendous airmisses recentley and must be stopped.
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To secret Squirrel:
"we can see it on tcas" annoys me because asking for higher when you already know that you are unlikely to get it for traffic reasons strikes me as being somewhat silly.
If I am busy, a call for higher may force me into one of my rare errors (?) and allocate an unsafe level. If you can see it on TCAS you will embarrass me by declining the climb but even worse is if you can`t see it or are not looking and one of us initiates avoiding action or something more serious. In other words, please don`t jog my elbow, wait till you think the traffic has gone past and then by all means please request higher.
"we can see it on tcas" annoys me because asking for higher when you already know that you are unlikely to get it for traffic reasons strikes me as being somewhat silly.
If I am busy, a call for higher may force me into one of my rare errors (?) and allocate an unsafe level. If you can see it on TCAS you will embarrass me by declining the climb but even worse is if you can`t see it or are not looking and one of us initiates avoiding action or something more serious. In other words, please don`t jog my elbow, wait till you think the traffic has gone past and then by all means please request higher.
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Billy Boy, what have you done? All these people seem jolly upset!!
Joking apart, as a failed ATCO cadet turned pilot I have sympathy with much that is written above.
One thing that hacks me off is gash RT, there's no need for it and it can be bloody dangerous! Worst culprits are the "septics" without a doubt, but then if you heard their ATC this would not be a surprise to you.
IMHO UK ATC is the best bar none. Don't let us whingeing pilots get you down!
Joking apart, as a failed ATCO cadet turned pilot I have sympathy with much that is written above.
One thing that hacks me off is gash RT, there's no need for it and it can be bloody dangerous! Worst culprits are the "septics" without a doubt, but then if you heard their ATC this would not be a surprise to you.
IMHO UK ATC is the best bar none. Don't let us whingeing pilots get you down!
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How about: " ATC clears xxxx123 to VOR climb to and maintain FL60 call departure 123.45 squawk 5678" then after you read it back you get "Local restriction, climb on R/W hdg to 2000"
How about: The Big Airways crews who NEVER listen out on a new frequency before transmitting! You know who you are!
How about: Two ac on ramp both departing about the same time. AC A calls for push and is cleared to push and face west which puts him right behind you!
How about: The Big Airways crews who NEVER listen out on a new frequency before transmitting! You know who you are!
How about: Two ac on ramp both departing about the same time. AC A calls for push and is cleared to push and face west which puts him right behind you!
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PaulDeGearup
I hate pilots, who given the clearance you quote, then come back and say they can't seem to be able to set 5678 on their transponder
Must have the cheap versions I guess ??
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10 West
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I hate pilots, who given the clearance you quote, then come back and say they can't seem to be able to set 5678 on their transponder
Must have the cheap versions I guess ??
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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
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Current annoying things:-
Airline managers who think it's fun to allocate callsigns with sequential or similar numbers to their flights which then follow each other for great distances.
American pilots who read back exactly what they wanted to hear, despite this not being what was said (usually involves climb or direct routeing in the only high level sector I control over the scottish part of the North Sea).
American pilots who don't listen out.
Favourite airline.UZBEK.May not have the best English language skills, but if they don't understand(rare event) at least they ask politely for a repeat.
Airline managers who think it's fun to allocate callsigns with sequential or similar numbers to their flights which then follow each other for great distances.
American pilots who read back exactly what they wanted to hear, despite this not being what was said (usually involves climb or direct routeing in the only high level sector I control over the scottish part of the North Sea).
American pilots who don't listen out.
Favourite airline.UZBEK.May not have the best English language skills, but if they don't understand(rare event) at least they ask politely for a repeat.
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My fave pilots are the russians especially when there`s lots of weather about.
Every other pilot is asking for weather avoidance(mysteriously shortening their route) but the comrades plough resolutely through. Now that they use western equipment you would have thought they would change tactics but don`t seem to mind at all.
Every other pilot is asking for weather avoidance(mysteriously shortening their route) but the comrades plough resolutely through. Now that they use western equipment you would have thought they would change tactics but don`t seem to mind at all.
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Daft Fader, I think you misunderstood me. I can understand your angst in the example you give; it's just that sometimes we may not notice it immediately and so the standard response is that we can see it (now). In fact though, what I meant was, when you give out flight information such as "aircraft crossing right to left 1000' above: A BA 747". We used to say, "visual with the traffic" whereas now we don't have to squint out the window searching for a spec in the sky with a silly painting on the tail.
Shakinghead: c'mon, have a sense of humour! Maybe I'm warped or something but it certainly brought a wry smile to my face. I don't know what tone he used and strictly speaking it isn't standard RT, I grant you. Maybe the jibe wasn't directed at you but at the ATP in front. Just a thought; please don't abuse me, I'm on your side, really.
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
Shakinghead: c'mon, have a sense of humour! Maybe I'm warped or something but it certainly brought a wry smile to my face. I don't know what tone he used and strictly speaking it isn't standard RT, I grant you. Maybe the jibe wasn't directed at you but at the ATP in front. Just a thought; please don't abuse me, I'm on your side, really.
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
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ACFT given HLD or SPD 2 make a LDG time. First CTC every FOL FREQ "RQST CANX SPD BLW A100 and NOW VIS RQST DCT LEFT DWIND"
Knock Knock ...Hello... you are not the one telling me about your great situational awareness are you?
& Please use your TCAS for what it is. Dont try and be the controller, and we won't fly your plane ok?
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"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s, not even by coincidence I should imagine "
Knock Knock ...Hello... you are not the one telling me about your great situational awareness are you?
& Please use your TCAS for what it is. Dont try and be the controller, and we won't fly your plane ok?
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[email protected]
"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s, not even by coincidence I should imagine "