Luton Radar!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dunno now
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Luton Radar!!
Why do you guys all of a sudden seem to insist we "be at 160kts between 7 and 4 DME"?
Do you want us to be at 160kts at some stage between 7 and 4 DME, or do you want us their AT (not before!) 7DME?
It is a little ambiguous, especially to the many foreign Pilots we employ at easyJet,and also seems odd when we are given the above instruction when their is no other traffic on frequency,and no waiting departures!
By the way, for us to be at 160kts at 7DME, we have to have the gear down which obviously increases both fuel consumption and noise,being in a high drag config (we are usually ctraight and level at 7 miles). The only exception is the -700,which can be flown low-drag at this speed, but not the -300!!
Regards, O/W
Do you want us to be at 160kts at some stage between 7 and 4 DME, or do you want us their AT (not before!) 7DME?
It is a little ambiguous, especially to the many foreign Pilots we employ at easyJet,and also seems odd when we are given the above instruction when their is no other traffic on frequency,and no waiting departures!
By the way, for us to be at 160kts at 7DME, we have to have the gear down which obviously increases both fuel consumption and noise,being in a high drag config (we are usually ctraight and level at 7 miles). The only exception is the -700,which can be flown low-drag at this speed, but not the -300!!
Regards, O/W
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Orangewing,
First, to answer your direct question, the instruction means that you must be stable at 160kts by the time you reach 7dme, and must maintain this speed until 4dme. On all the occassions that I have asked for this to be varied, it has been, so if you ask, they will allow you to do 170 and keep the gear up and the noise down. IMHO, the instruction is clear and concise.
Why the restriction? For various reasons, TC are trying to ensure a standard operation, and this includes standardising the manner in which traffic is presented to Tower, in order that the tower controllers may make better use of runway time. The benefits of this are fewer delays, higher runway utilisation, fewer go-arounds, etc.
The controllers are aware of the problem, but their procedures say that this is the manner in which traffic must be presented, and they follow their procedures. In my ATC liaison capacity for easyJet, I shall be discussing this with Luton ATC managers soon, with a view to getting the speed changed to 170kts.
There's more on the company bulletin board about speed control (though the thread is a little old), and there may be some sort or NOTC or other communication to crews on this and other ATC-related topics soon.
Meantime, it's best to comply with the instruction, or ask to have it varied. The TC controller has a very accurate groundspeed read-out, and the Tower controller has an radar display (the ATM or Aerodrome Traffic Monitor) which gives clear indication of speed, so flying 170kts for a bit and then slowing to 150kts early will not help, as the Tower guy will see you coming a little fast, and may therefore decide to hold a departure on the ground rather than letting it go.
If you need any more gen, please e-mail me or drop something in my drop-file at LTN.
All the best,
Tim
First, to answer your direct question, the instruction means that you must be stable at 160kts by the time you reach 7dme, and must maintain this speed until 4dme. On all the occassions that I have asked for this to be varied, it has been, so if you ask, they will allow you to do 170 and keep the gear up and the noise down. IMHO, the instruction is clear and concise.
Why the restriction? For various reasons, TC are trying to ensure a standard operation, and this includes standardising the manner in which traffic is presented to Tower, in order that the tower controllers may make better use of runway time. The benefits of this are fewer delays, higher runway utilisation, fewer go-arounds, etc.
The controllers are aware of the problem, but their procedures say that this is the manner in which traffic must be presented, and they follow their procedures. In my ATC liaison capacity for easyJet, I shall be discussing this with Luton ATC managers soon, with a view to getting the speed changed to 170kts.
There's more on the company bulletin board about speed control (though the thread is a little old), and there may be some sort or NOTC or other communication to crews on this and other ATC-related topics soon.
Meantime, it's best to comply with the instruction, or ask to have it varied. The TC controller has a very accurate groundspeed read-out, and the Tower controller has an radar display (the ATM or Aerodrome Traffic Monitor) which gives clear indication of speed, so flying 170kts for a bit and then slowing to 150kts early will not help, as the Tower guy will see you coming a little fast, and may therefore decide to hold a departure on the ground rather than letting it go.
If you need any more gen, please e-mail me or drop something in my drop-file at LTN.
All the best,
Tim
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: ATC
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Orangewing. According to my mates at Luton, traffic has to be uniformly delivered to the tower by radar due to the nature of the backtrack problem on both runways. A stabilised approach means judging the ‘gap’ between successive inbounds is much easier and straightforward and reduces the risk of a go around it also ensures that a gap created by radar is not eroded.
160kts between 7 and 4 mile is used usually when there is no other speed restriction, so you can fly as fast as you like up until that range.
May I suggest you visit the VCR and West Drayton; all will become apparent once you see what those guys (And gals) do.
160kts between 7 and 4 mile is used usually when there is no other speed restriction, so you can fly as fast as you like up until that range.
May I suggest you visit the VCR and West Drayton; all will become apparent once you see what those guys (And gals) do.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Er Tim... this accurate groundspeed readout we're supposed to have.. Can you elucidate further because I've been in TC for 8 years and don't seem to have found it yet..
[/LIST]
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R Slicker
You missed a very important word. Accurate. There is a ground speed readout on Nodel but it is far from accurate or stable. Heathrow Director knows what he is talking about and isn't about to fail anything. Me thinks you don't work in TC.
You missed a very important word. Accurate. There is a ground speed readout on Nodel but it is far from accurate or stable. Heathrow Director knows what he is talking about and isn't about to fail anything. Me thinks you don't work in TC.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: ATC
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyway, can we return to the thread. Too many chit chat lines within a lot of the ATC threads!
Operating high intensity operations from a runway with few access points, let alone a taxiway to each end requires that both the radar and tower operations are Standardised, the problem therefore is if each aircraft needs a different approach speed, the desired spacing between successive flights cannot be guaranteed. This in turn could add to the amount of go-arounds.
I appreciate that the new generation jets maybe different to fly, but on a day to day basis, seldom few requests to alter speeds from the standard are received by approach radar (Certainly at my unit).
Operating high intensity operations from a runway with few access points, let alone a taxiway to each end requires that both the radar and tower operations are Standardised, the problem therefore is if each aircraft needs a different approach speed, the desired spacing between successive flights cannot be guaranteed. This in turn could add to the amount of go-arounds.
I appreciate that the new generation jets maybe different to fly, but on a day to day basis, seldom few requests to alter speeds from the standard are received by approach radar (Certainly at my unit).
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Blighty
Posts: 568
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the issue of 160 between 7 to 4 miles, I am never quite sure if they want us to be at 160 at 4 miles or not less than 160 till 4 DME.
Regards Bokkie449
[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: springbok449 ]
Regards Bokkie449
[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: springbok449 ]
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: ATC
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stabilised speed of 160 knots at 7 miles and continue this speed until 4 miles, this enables the tower controller to accurately determine spacing for departures. At Luton this must be critical due to the lack of rapid exits and taxiway to the end of each runway.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dunno now
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beaver, many thanks for your responses - makes things a lot clearer, being able to see things from a controller's perspective!
I would love to visit West Drayton, I always assumed you lot were far too busy to be able to accomodate "flight deck visitors"!
By the way, what / who is VCR??
Regards,
I would love to visit West Drayton, I always assumed you lot were far too busy to be able to accomodate "flight deck visitors"!
By the way, what / who is VCR??
Regards,
