Big thanks to Manchester ATC
Peatair.
I agree with you entirely that the 'don't transmit, listen out' is far from ideal because it doesn't provide any situational awareness of other traffic for pilots in the LLR. We are trying to address this problem but unfortunately it's taking some time to get an opinion from the powers that be! Regarding using the LLR at night. Well it is legal but only by bringing together a number of bits of various documents! Think of it like this. The LLR is a notified route where a specific clearance is not required. It's actually class D airspace so at night, flight within it maintaining VMC would be SVFR flight. Now, if you look at MATS Pt1, (CAP493) Section 1 Chapter 2 Page 5, (8.3.2). It says...'No seperation can be provided between SVFR flights which are flying in notified areas or routes where an individual clearance is not required, or between flights using such areas or routes and other flights on SVFR clearances'. Phew!! Hope that answers your question.
Spiney
I agree with you entirely that the 'don't transmit, listen out' is far from ideal because it doesn't provide any situational awareness of other traffic for pilots in the LLR. We are trying to address this problem but unfortunately it's taking some time to get an opinion from the powers that be! Regarding using the LLR at night. Well it is legal but only by bringing together a number of bits of various documents! Think of it like this. The LLR is a notified route where a specific clearance is not required. It's actually class D airspace so at night, flight within it maintaining VMC would be SVFR flight. Now, if you look at MATS Pt1, (CAP493) Section 1 Chapter 2 Page 5, (8.3.2). It says...'No seperation can be provided between SVFR flights which are flying in notified areas or routes where an individual clearance is not required, or between flights using such areas or routes and other flights on SVFR clearances'. Phew!! Hope that answers your question.
Spiney
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Manchester
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Spiney
Many thanks for the information. I follow the reasoning that makes it "legal" but I don't think that using the route at night is at all sensible especially if you go back to the Rule 5 problems? I always like to think that we apply "good airmanship" to what we do as I feel sure you will agree.
By the way - having glanced at CHIRP this morning - I notice that there is some comment in about the low flying rules and how "congested area" is defined legally. This could have a bearing on whether fixed wing can properly comply with Rule 5 in the low level route.
My guess is that the point about use of RTF is in someone's "far too difficult" tray. Manchester won't want the extra RTF and neither will Liverpool. Who else is there?
I think we should now leave this thorny topic (!!) but many thanks for your considered replies.
Sincerely
Peatair
Many thanks for the information. I follow the reasoning that makes it "legal" but I don't think that using the route at night is at all sensible especially if you go back to the Rule 5 problems? I always like to think that we apply "good airmanship" to what we do as I feel sure you will agree.
By the way - having glanced at CHIRP this morning - I notice that there is some comment in about the low flying rules and how "congested area" is defined legally. This could have a bearing on whether fixed wing can properly comply with Rule 5 in the low level route.
My guess is that the point about use of RTF is in someone's "far too difficult" tray. Manchester won't want the extra RTF and neither will Liverpool. Who else is there?
I think we should now leave this thorny topic (!!) but many thanks for your considered replies.
Sincerely
Peatair
