18000' and FL180
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Ok, Spitoon obviously the UK does things very differently to Oz and the Middle East where the Transition level for each FIR is set in stone and you would never fiddle with it.
Two dogs, your theory doesn't really work in this region where, Iran with some pretty massive mountains has a transition level of FL100, whereas the UAE with much smaller mountains (hills? mounds of gravel?) has a transition level of FL140.
This is all giving me a headache.
Two dogs, your theory doesn't really work in this region where, Iran with some pretty massive mountains has a transition level of FL100, whereas the UAE with much smaller mountains (hills? mounds of gravel?) has a transition level of FL140.
This is all giving me a headache.
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ANSA, I'm sorry if I've given the wrong impression. In the UK the TA is set in stone for any particular piece of airspace. What I was describing was the flexibility that a controller has (because he or she is controlling most if not all of the traffic in the vicinity) in asking pilots to fly on altimeter settings that are not the norm.
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In the New Zealand FIR TA=11,000 TL=FL130
(climbing through 11,000 we set QNE, decsending through FL130 we set QNH)
FL130 is not available when QNH/Altimeter drops below a certain level. Cruise within the layer eg at 12000 is allowed with ATC approval.
(climbing through 11,000 we set QNE, decsending through FL130 we set QNH)
FL130 is not available when QNH/Altimeter drops below a certain level. Cruise within the layer eg at 12000 is allowed with ATC approval.
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Hi Mike;
As stated in an earlier post, it is technically assignable, but not useable for separation from aircraft or obstructions. So you won't find us using it for anything...
regards
Scott
As stated in an earlier post, it is technically assignable, but not useable for separation from aircraft or obstructions. So you won't find us using it for anything...
regards
Scott
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Two Dogs,
I read the same thing somewhere once, can't find the reference now. Although aound here the highest terrain is in Alaska. Mount McKinley, at some ~20000 feet, so not sure how that explains FL180.
Scott,
am not very familiar with FAR/AIM, but was wondering if Mike was trying to find the reference that says you can actually "assign" it when its less than 2992? For us its in black and white, we can't.
Anyways great discussion!
I read the same thing somewhere once, can't find the reference now. Although aound here the highest terrain is in Alaska. Mount McKinley, at some ~20000 feet, so not sure how that explains FL180.
Scott,
am not very familiar with FAR/AIM, but was wondering if Mike was trying to find the reference that says you can actually "assign" it when its less than 2992? For us its in black and white, we can't.
Anyways great discussion!
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Perhaps I am missing something here (wouldn't be the first time 
) but why would anyone want to assign a level within the Transition layer anyway, irrespective of what level it happens to be at.
Since a level within the Transition layer can't be assigned for separation purposes, I gather we are all agreed on that, then surely it is logical that you assign either the lowest flight level (TL) or the highest Altitude (TA) to aircraft on climb or descent.
) but why would anyone want to assign a level within the Transition layer anyway, irrespective of what level it happens to be at. Since a level within the Transition layer can't be assigned for separation purposes, I gather we are all agreed on that, then surely it is logical that you assign either the lowest flight level (TL) or the highest Altitude (TA) to aircraft on climb or descent.
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The only time I could ever think would be if there was nobody else around and the lighty needed to use a level in the transition layer, due to lowest safe, icing, turbulence etc. and is unable to go any higher. It would happen. My concern was about the change from one FIR to the next that has a different transition layer and the pilots changing early or late from one to the other and the danger that could hold.
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In answer to the original poster....
Transiting through 18,000 FEET on the way up change all three altimeters to 29.92. Transiting through FLIGHT LEVEL 180 on the way down change all three altimeters to local area altimeter setting. This is right out of our SOPs and is incorporated into the 180 checks.
Transiting through 18,000 FEET on the way up change all three altimeters to 29.92. Transiting through FLIGHT LEVEL 180 on the way down change all three altimeters to local area altimeter setting. This is right out of our SOPs and is incorporated into the 180 checks.
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Thanks 604, and another one for you. Is it still F180 on the way down if it is below 2992? As far as I can tell right now, you guys don't really care about the altimeter setting when transiting up or down?
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ANSA
A small correction to your statement on the TA/TL in the UAE.
The transition altitude is 13 000' and transition level is FL150. FL140 or 14 000' is within the transition layer and cannot not be used as the 1 000' seperation minima cannot be guaranteed either way.
ICAO stipulates that the transition layer must be a minimum of 1 000', thus the transition altitude is fixed (due to terrain clearance) and the transition level adjusts to the prevailing QNH. In the UAE, the TA has been set high enough to ensure continued terrain clearance and the TL is also fixed to ensure a minimum transition layer of 1 000'.
As to the problem of FIR's not adapting the same procedure is another problem all together. As far as I know the 13 000'/FL150 is meant to be the regional TA/TL and is complied with by most states within this region.
A small correction to your statement on the TA/TL in the UAE.
The transition altitude is 13 000' and transition level is FL150. FL140 or 14 000' is within the transition layer and cannot not be used as the 1 000' seperation minima cannot be guaranteed either way.
ICAO stipulates that the transition layer must be a minimum of 1 000', thus the transition altitude is fixed (due to terrain clearance) and the transition level adjusts to the prevailing QNH. In the UAE, the TA has been set high enough to ensure continued terrain clearance and the TL is also fixed to ensure a minimum transition layer of 1 000'.
As to the problem of FIR's not adapting the same procedure is another problem all together. As far as I know the 13 000'/FL150 is meant to be the regional TA/TL and is complied with by most states within this region.
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Hi Bookworm.
ICAO Doc 9526 Chap 5, Altimeter Setting Procedures.
Further to this, and more appropriately, check out this site
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/aim0702.html
Cheers
ICAO Doc 9526 Chap 5, Altimeter Setting Procedures.
Further to this, and more appropriately, check out this site
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/aim0702.html
Cheers
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Thanks Radar Pete, thanks for your clarification. My question is why is it that Iran with much bigger mountains than us has a much lower transition altitude, and I guess they are not part of this regional agreement you said there is. Which is a big shame since they make up our entire northern border.
ICAO Doc 9526 Chap 5, Altimeter Setting Procedures.
The only reference I can find to transition level in PANS-OPS Vol 1 (Pt VI 1.1.3) makes no mention of a 1000 ft minimum for the transition layer.
Further to this, and more appropriately, check out this site
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/aim0702.html
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/aim0702.html
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Hi Bookworm
As far as I recall it is 'ATM Planning and Procedures'. It falls under the section of "Altimeter Setting Procedures'.
I remember this section at the 'College of Knowledge' when still a cadet. The altimeter setting procedures fall into 2 catagories;
1. Where an ATS provider is in use and the transition altitudes and levels are well documented, and
2. The procedure for departing an unmanned airfield where no transition altitudes have been set.
When reading Doc 9526 it refers to 500' and 1000' limitations. This has to be kept in mind with regards to 1 & 2 above. In a controlled environment the minimum should be set at 1000' and in an uncontrolled environment where the minima would be 500' thus taking VFR levels into account.
This all needs to be read in conjunction with other sections which I have not yet investigated. My old ATC manual explains it all but does not refer to specific ICAO Docs and some refernces are now obsolete and been replaced. These sections cannot be read in isolation. The same must be considered when reading the FAA material as well.
ANSA
With regards to Iran, the TA is not uniform throughout. Their TA's vary throughout the country from region to region. I know of several countries that do this and a table can normally be found in the AIP's specifying the TA's and the associated TL's based on QNH bands. If one looks at these tables you will see the transition layer is never less than 1000'. I agree with you with regards to uniformity, especially where 2 FIRs join. This problem is not isolated to this region.
O for Utopia!!!!!
As far as I recall it is 'ATM Planning and Procedures'. It falls under the section of "Altimeter Setting Procedures'.
I remember this section at the 'College of Knowledge' when still a cadet. The altimeter setting procedures fall into 2 catagories;
1. Where an ATS provider is in use and the transition altitudes and levels are well documented, and
2. The procedure for departing an unmanned airfield where no transition altitudes have been set.
When reading Doc 9526 it refers to 500' and 1000' limitations. This has to be kept in mind with regards to 1 & 2 above. In a controlled environment the minimum should be set at 1000' and in an uncontrolled environment where the minima would be 500' thus taking VFR levels into account.
This all needs to be read in conjunction with other sections which I have not yet investigated. My old ATC manual explains it all but does not refer to specific ICAO Docs and some refernces are now obsolete and been replaced. These sections cannot be read in isolation. The same must be considered when reading the FAA material as well.
ANSA
With regards to Iran, the TA is not uniform throughout. Their TA's vary throughout the country from region to region. I know of several countries that do this and a table can normally be found in the AIP's specifying the TA's and the associated TL's based on QNH bands. If one looks at these tables you will see the transition layer is never less than 1000'. I agree with you with regards to uniformity, especially where 2 FIRs join. This problem is not isolated to this region.
O for Utopia!!!!!
Radar Pete
Yes, it's a tricky area, isn't it.
I can't find 'ATM Planning and Procedures' anywhere in the ICAO pubs catalogue, and in fact the only thing that's close is Doc 4444, now called PANS-ATM. I have a copy from the days that it was still PANS-RAC, it discusses the transition level, but makes no mention of transition layer having to be at least 1000 ft thick. The transition level is simply the lowest flight level available for use above the transition altitude.
Any chance this may have been a regional procedure?
Yes, it's a tricky area, isn't it.
I can't find 'ATM Planning and Procedures' anywhere in the ICAO pubs catalogue, and in fact the only thing that's close is Doc 4444, now called PANS-ATM. I have a copy from the days that it was still PANS-RAC, it discusses the transition level, but makes no mention of transition layer having to be at least 1000 ft thick. The transition level is simply the lowest flight level available for use above the transition altitude.
Any chance this may have been a regional procedure?