LHR ground operations
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LHR ground operations
I have the deepest respect for ATCOs at Heathrow. Few airports, if any, come close to the professional efficiency that one finds at Heathrow. This holds through from area, approach, and landing.
However, I cannot be as full of praise for ground operations at LHR, and from my recent experience, things have got worse.
On my last two visits (Terminal 4), I was asked to hold Block 75 (old timer here!), short of T/O Rwy 27L, as our "stand was still occupied". Now at the very moment the controller was saying these words, I could see our stand being vacated. No problem I thought, short delay in coms. I asked to be transferred to tower so that we could hold (and wait) on the otherside of the active. "Negative" I was bluntly told, like a chided school child.
To my disgust, not even a minute later, a BRITISH AIRWAYS 777 overtook me at the holding point and duly crossed 27L, only the cul-de-sac was still blocked due to the aircraft pushing back from OUR gate. We were then transferred to tower, and after some takeoffs, we were allowed to cross 27L. As we got to the Victors, we got right behind the 777, but were told to hold short and wait for another BRITISH AIRWAYS (A320), to push and exit the Victors, when we could have easily followed the BRITISH AIRWAYS 777 into the Victors. (But the 777 was allowed in). Instead our delay was extended. That taxi-in took 35 minutes, resulting in a block on of 15 minutes late, and an extra fuel burn of 400 KG. It was most unfair that we were overtaken by the 777 in the first place, that we were not allowed to hold in Block 94 instead of 75 and then, that we were made to again wait for another BRITISH AIRWAYS to start a push and exit the cul-de-sac.
On my last visit (stand 401), for departure we were 30 mins late off the blocks due to missed slot (our fault). We had a slot at 41 past the hour (i.e earliest airborne at 36). Allowed to start our push at 20 and found a BRITISH AIRWAYS in front of us a few stands away, which was allowed to push back in our way. Taxied right behind the 320 until 27L which was being used for landings today. After waiting our turn, we were told to give way to (and follow) two other aircraft. At time 36 we saw the BRITISH AIRWAYS we were originally following getting airborne. I could hear ATC giving clearances to absolutely everyone on our left side, even those coming from round the corner, which left nobody else at the holding point. I then asked our position in sequence, and was promptly told to line up "After the BRITISH AIRWAYS that is presently (right) behind you"!! Can you believe this? Incredible! What ever next? We ended taking off at 51, at the upper extreme of our slot, 15 minutes after a BRITISH AIRWAYS that originally had been given pushback after us. That made us a whole hour late. This special treatment to BRITISH AIRWAYS is sick, silly and unprofessional. After all 95% of our passengers are British anyway.
However, I cannot be as full of praise for ground operations at LHR, and from my recent experience, things have got worse.
On my last two visits (Terminal 4), I was asked to hold Block 75 (old timer here!), short of T/O Rwy 27L, as our "stand was still occupied". Now at the very moment the controller was saying these words, I could see our stand being vacated. No problem I thought, short delay in coms. I asked to be transferred to tower so that we could hold (and wait) on the otherside of the active. "Negative" I was bluntly told, like a chided school child.
To my disgust, not even a minute later, a BRITISH AIRWAYS 777 overtook me at the holding point and duly crossed 27L, only the cul-de-sac was still blocked due to the aircraft pushing back from OUR gate. We were then transferred to tower, and after some takeoffs, we were allowed to cross 27L. As we got to the Victors, we got right behind the 777, but were told to hold short and wait for another BRITISH AIRWAYS (A320), to push and exit the Victors, when we could have easily followed the BRITISH AIRWAYS 777 into the Victors. (But the 777 was allowed in). Instead our delay was extended. That taxi-in took 35 minutes, resulting in a block on of 15 minutes late, and an extra fuel burn of 400 KG. It was most unfair that we were overtaken by the 777 in the first place, that we were not allowed to hold in Block 94 instead of 75 and then, that we were made to again wait for another BRITISH AIRWAYS to start a push and exit the cul-de-sac.
On my last visit (stand 401), for departure we were 30 mins late off the blocks due to missed slot (our fault). We had a slot at 41 past the hour (i.e earliest airborne at 36). Allowed to start our push at 20 and found a BRITISH AIRWAYS in front of us a few stands away, which was allowed to push back in our way. Taxied right behind the 320 until 27L which was being used for landings today. After waiting our turn, we were told to give way to (and follow) two other aircraft. At time 36 we saw the BRITISH AIRWAYS we were originally following getting airborne. I could hear ATC giving clearances to absolutely everyone on our left side, even those coming from round the corner, which left nobody else at the holding point. I then asked our position in sequence, and was promptly told to line up "After the BRITISH AIRWAYS that is presently (right) behind you"!! Can you believe this? Incredible! What ever next? We ended taking off at 51, at the upper extreme of our slot, 15 minutes after a BRITISH AIRWAYS that originally had been given pushback after us. That made us a whole hour late. This special treatment to BRITISH AIRWAYS is sick, silly and unprofessional. After all 95% of our passengers are British anyway.
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I'm sorry to hear you don't think we provide a very good service.
I wasn't working at the time of either of your experinces recently, but might be able to describe some of the wider factors that we have to consider.
Taking the first one: Before crossing 09R you were with 121.9, and after crossing, was 121.7, correct? Now, although these two controllers sit beside each other, if it's busy we end up having to write notes to each other to co-ordinate. You were told your gate was occupied by 121.9 as you landed. Now, the aircraft pushing off your gate was with 121.7. The only way 121.9 would learn about your gate being vacated was if 121.7 told him. And for that to happen 121.7 would have to see that his colleague was controlling an a/c waiting for that gate. If it's anything more than moderately busy, you just don't have time to do that. Added to that our computers that tell us which stand you're going to do not update somrtimes to tell us your gate is now free. On saturday I held a BA 319 in what used to be block 93 for twenty minutes and in the end we found out his gate had been free all the time. Not our fault if we can't see the gate from the tower.
I'm guessing here, but at the time 121.9 would have known the 777's gate was free, and was still under the assumption that your gate was still occupied. If that was the case, who should he have crossed first? And although I personally hold in block 95 (94 obstructs stands), I know some who won't, because it does cut down on flexibility.
Also, perhaps the second outbound BA Airbus you waited for had a tight slot time?
Regarding the second visit. The BA that pushed in front of you might have had an earlier slot than you. Also, once at the hold, how many who 'overtook' you had slot times? Are you sure that they had later slots than you? The -5 and +10 on slots are there for us to yuse to get the best departure order, and to cover taxi delays like you experienced. I assume that you were waiting at the top of 23? In that case, how many of those you think 'overtook' you at the holding area did you 'overtake' yourselves as you taxied past them up 23? It's an interesting thing, but depatures taxying up 23 for 27R departure, and along what is now taxiway S for 09R often quickly call to find out their sequence, because they frequently find themselves waiting at the front of their particular holding point, even though they were transferred to tower behind the 12 already in the main holding area. The fact that they might be waiting at the front of their hold for five minutes makes them ask, but in our minds they're about number ten.
I would recommend coming up to the tower and having a look around. I promise you that there is NO SPECIAL TREATMENT to BA. If you generally believe that then I'm sorry, and I think that if you did visit us, you'd be quite surprised.
And also; Ground at Heathrow is done by those ATCOs whom you have the greatest respect for. both tower frequencies, both ground frequencies and Delivery are all done from the control tower, and we all get to do all the various positions during a shift.
I wasn't working at the time of either of your experinces recently, but might be able to describe some of the wider factors that we have to consider.
Taking the first one: Before crossing 09R you were with 121.9, and after crossing, was 121.7, correct? Now, although these two controllers sit beside each other, if it's busy we end up having to write notes to each other to co-ordinate. You were told your gate was occupied by 121.9 as you landed. Now, the aircraft pushing off your gate was with 121.7. The only way 121.9 would learn about your gate being vacated was if 121.7 told him. And for that to happen 121.7 would have to see that his colleague was controlling an a/c waiting for that gate. If it's anything more than moderately busy, you just don't have time to do that. Added to that our computers that tell us which stand you're going to do not update somrtimes to tell us your gate is now free. On saturday I held a BA 319 in what used to be block 93 for twenty minutes and in the end we found out his gate had been free all the time. Not our fault if we can't see the gate from the tower.
I'm guessing here, but at the time 121.9 would have known the 777's gate was free, and was still under the assumption that your gate was still occupied. If that was the case, who should he have crossed first? And although I personally hold in block 95 (94 obstructs stands), I know some who won't, because it does cut down on flexibility.
Also, perhaps the second outbound BA Airbus you waited for had a tight slot time?
Regarding the second visit. The BA that pushed in front of you might have had an earlier slot than you. Also, once at the hold, how many who 'overtook' you had slot times? Are you sure that they had later slots than you? The -5 and +10 on slots are there for us to yuse to get the best departure order, and to cover taxi delays like you experienced. I assume that you were waiting at the top of 23? In that case, how many of those you think 'overtook' you at the holding area did you 'overtake' yourselves as you taxied past them up 23? It's an interesting thing, but depatures taxying up 23 for 27R departure, and along what is now taxiway S for 09R often quickly call to find out their sequence, because they frequently find themselves waiting at the front of their particular holding point, even though they were transferred to tower behind the 12 already in the main holding area. The fact that they might be waiting at the front of their hold for five minutes makes them ask, but in our minds they're about number ten.
I would recommend coming up to the tower and having a look around. I promise you that there is NO SPECIAL TREATMENT to BA. If you generally believe that then I'm sorry, and I think that if you did visit us, you'd be quite surprised.
And also; Ground at Heathrow is done by those ATCOs whom you have the greatest respect for. both tower frequencies, both ground frequencies and Delivery are all done from the control tower, and we all get to do all the various positions during a shift.
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Good post Gonzo...
All I can say to SF1 is be thankful you do not have to operate in and out of there all the time. Incredibly frustrating for all the reasons you list, and not due to ATC who cope well with a creaking infrastructure...
And Gonzo is completely correct when he says
That's reserved for Midland <G>
All I can say to SF1 is be thankful you do not have to operate in and out of there all the time. Incredibly frustrating for all the reasons you list, and not due to ATC who cope well with a creaking infrastructure...
And Gonzo is completely correct when he says
I promise you that there is NO SPECIAL TREATMENT to BA
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Thanks NoD,
They say the same about you, so it shows we do it right!!!!!!!! 
And Gonzo is completely correct when he says
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I promise you that there is NO SPECIAL TREATMENT to BA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's reserved for Midland <G>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I promise you that there is NO SPECIAL TREATMENT to BA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's reserved for Midland <G>
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Good post Gonzo.
There are so many factors pilots forget to take into account, or don't even know exist, when they think they are being unduly delayed or other airlines, even the same airline if you're a certain BA pilot out there, get 'prefferential' treatment.
As Gonzo says, visit us in the tower, or if you don't have time, and do feel aggrieved phone the tower for an explanation.
There are so many factors pilots forget to take into account, or don't even know exist, when they think they are being unduly delayed or other airlines, even the same airline if you're a certain BA pilot out there, get 'prefferential' treatment.
As Gonzo says, visit us in the tower, or if you don't have time, and do feel aggrieved phone the tower for an explanation.
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Gonzo, tkank you for explaining in a greater detail your perspective. I do appreciate that yours is (also!) a very demanding job and that also, BA, being the lasrgest operator at LHR, are bound to be absolutely everywhere.
It is true what you say about what looks like 'jumping the queue' when holding at the top of 23, and it is of course taken into consideration, however I only spoke up when we had been there (at holding point) for a while, and a clearence had just been given to someone who had just come around the corner from Terminal 3. (Don't forget that we came all the way from Terminal 4 already). Then I was told I'd be No2 to a BA that had arrived later and was in sequence directly behind us, which I thought was the limit. The other BA we had found in our way at Terminal 4 had got airborne 15 minutes before us, too. Not only were we also on a slot, but we were also now a whole hour late. (Do you have an indication of our original ETD?)
However I really do appreciate your assurances and look forward to better times. Perhaps I will take up your kind offer and vist you one day.
It is true what you say about what looks like 'jumping the queue' when holding at the top of 23, and it is of course taken into consideration, however I only spoke up when we had been there (at holding point) for a while, and a clearence had just been given to someone who had just come around the corner from Terminal 3. (Don't forget that we came all the way from Terminal 4 already). Then I was told I'd be No2 to a BA that had arrived later and was in sequence directly behind us, which I thought was the limit. The other BA we had found in our way at Terminal 4 had got airborne 15 minutes before us, too. Not only were we also on a slot, but we were also now a whole hour late. (Do you have an indication of our original ETD?)
However I really do appreciate your assurances and look forward to better times. Perhaps I will take up your kind offer and vist you one day.
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S_f001,
No problem at all. I guess a lot of it is Human Factors. This is the main reason why cockpit flights for ATCOs, and ATC visits fro flight crew are A Good Thing. No criticism meant in any way, but flight crew have a very localised view of things, and so they should, given their responsibility to their pax. By definition the ATCO has a 'bigger picture' to look after, and the two different viewpoints often do not co-incide.
We do have the original 'Estimated off blocks time' on the part of the flight plan we use when controlling you ('the strip'). However, this could be updated by us (your allocated squawk code will be allocated to someone else 90 minutes after your EOBT if you haven't got airborne and we dont' update it), or perhaps your company might update it themselves if they know you're running late. We might not always therefore know how late you're running, and very rarely would we look at that information anyway. Yes, if I have two DVRs or two BPKs at the holding point, and you're both the same type, same slot, same filed airspeed, same requested level, then I MIGHT look to see who is running late.
If you'd like some contact numbers for the tower, PM me.
Edit: Just out of interest, have a look at this:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...readid=125819&
Half way down I posted a quick list of factors I think about when determining the departure order. This was from five minutes sitting at a computer, so no doubt there are more!
No problem at all. I guess a lot of it is Human Factors. This is the main reason why cockpit flights for ATCOs, and ATC visits fro flight crew are A Good Thing. No criticism meant in any way, but flight crew have a very localised view of things, and so they should, given their responsibility to their pax. By definition the ATCO has a 'bigger picture' to look after, and the two different viewpoints often do not co-incide.
We do have the original 'Estimated off blocks time' on the part of the flight plan we use when controlling you ('the strip'). However, this could be updated by us (your allocated squawk code will be allocated to someone else 90 minutes after your EOBT if you haven't got airborne and we dont' update it), or perhaps your company might update it themselves if they know you're running late. We might not always therefore know how late you're running, and very rarely would we look at that information anyway. Yes, if I have two DVRs or two BPKs at the holding point, and you're both the same type, same slot, same filed airspeed, same requested level, then I MIGHT look to see who is running late.
If you'd like some contact numbers for the tower, PM me.
Edit: Just out of interest, have a look at this:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...readid=125819&
Half way down I posted a quick list of factors I think about when determining the departure order. This was from five minutes sitting at a computer, so no doubt there are more!
Last edited by Gonzo; 23rd Jul 2004 at 15:08.
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Here's a further thought too.
YOUR running an hour late is who's problem? Cos it sure ain't the fault of ATC. We're trying to provide the best service to all the aircraft on the airfield and if that means certain aircraft don't get away in the order that they want then so be it. We ARE impartial in all the ways that the original poster isn't. He/She is purely concerned with their own flight - hence the griping.
If they are an hour late off gate sorry to hear that, but it is the problem of the airline - don't expect a parting of the ways cos you'll miss last orders in Singapore and you've got a Chelsea Rose on your tail.
60 airlines try to fly out of Heathrow. BA are just one of them - they'd do well to remember that.
P7
YOUR running an hour late is who's problem? Cos it sure ain't the fault of ATC. We're trying to provide the best service to all the aircraft on the airfield and if that means certain aircraft don't get away in the order that they want then so be it. We ARE impartial in all the ways that the original poster isn't. He/She is purely concerned with their own flight - hence the griping.
If they are an hour late off gate sorry to hear that, but it is the problem of the airline - don't expect a parting of the ways cos you'll miss last orders in Singapore and you've got a Chelsea Rose on your tail.
60 airlines try to fly out of Heathrow. BA are just one of them - they'd do well to remember that.
P7
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Point Seven, it's a pity that you are not as level headed as your colleague Gonzo. There is no need for confrontation here, a mature discussion is what we were having.
Of course my piece is "purely concerned with my own flight - ", what else do you expect. Indeed can it be any different if I felt that I was getting second class treatment?
If you bothered to read my post correctly, you will note that I wasn't "griping" because we were an hour late off the blocks , but because we were an hour late at getting airborne........for which ATC did, have a big say, and I was only after an plausable explaination, which Gonzo did a very good job at, and I even replied that I was satisfied with his explaination.
Just remember that we are each a customer of each other......
Of course my piece is "purely concerned with my own flight - ", what else do you expect. Indeed can it be any different if I felt that I was getting second class treatment?
If you bothered to read my post correctly, you will note that I wasn't "griping" because we were an hour late off the blocks , but because we were an hour late at getting airborne........for which ATC did, have a big say, and I was only after an plausable explaination, which Gonzo did a very good job at, and I even replied that I was satisfied with his explaination.
Just remember that we are each a customer of each other......
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point7
If you re-read the first post, it would suggest that the poster does not work for British Airways, as he was complaining about them getting preferential treatment!
YOU then turn that around to diss BA!
If you re-read the first post, it would suggest that the poster does not work for British Airways, as he was complaining about them getting preferential treatment!
YOU then turn that around to diss BA!
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TopBunk
If YOU re-read the post you'll see that the problem of being late off the gate was being used. That is not a concern for ATC.
Pilots often seem to forget the number of times that ATC will squeeze a plane out when they call for start and push only minutes before thier CTOT begins even when others will get stuffed at the holding point.
Sidestick Flyer
The confrontational nature of YOUR email was what made me react in such a way. You started your post lamenting your "lack of respect for LHR ground operations". Your further called our treatment of BA "sick, silly and unprofessional". And I'm confrontational?
Just cos your slot is 41 does NOT mean that I have to get you airborne at 36. It means that I have to get you airborne between time 36 and 51 (56 in exceptional circumstances - gosh imagine that). I am also providing a service to all the other aircraaft at the holding point and if that means the most expeditious departure order means you going at the end of your slot, still in accordance with the rules, then so be it.
Sick, silly and unprofessional? I'll take that for doing my job right.
P7
If YOU re-read the post you'll see that the problem of being late off the gate was being used. That is not a concern for ATC.
Pilots often seem to forget the number of times that ATC will squeeze a plane out when they call for start and push only minutes before thier CTOT begins even when others will get stuffed at the holding point.
Sidestick Flyer
The confrontational nature of YOUR email was what made me react in such a way. You started your post lamenting your "lack of respect for LHR ground operations". Your further called our treatment of BA "sick, silly and unprofessional". And I'm confrontational?
Just cos your slot is 41 does NOT mean that I have to get you airborne at 36. It means that I have to get you airborne between time 36 and 51 (56 in exceptional circumstances - gosh imagine that). I am also providing a service to all the other aircraaft at the holding point and if that means the most expeditious departure order means you going at the end of your slot, still in accordance with the rules, then so be it.
Sick, silly and unprofessional? I'll take that for doing my job right.
P7
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POINT SEVEN
Where do you get your attitude from? The guys clearly hacked off, he doesn't know why he has been delayed and hence, has asked for an explanation, (one of the functions of Pprune). The explanation had already been given. Your 'two penneth' was not required. It was not confrontational at all and I can't help wandering if he was to ask you the same question to your face would you use the same reply? Don't forget they are our customers.
I didn't think ATCO's could get so easily rattled!!.
Where do you get your attitude from? The guys clearly hacked off, he doesn't know why he has been delayed and hence, has asked for an explanation, (one of the functions of Pprune). The explanation had already been given. Your 'two penneth' was not required. It was not confrontational at all and I can't help wandering if he was to ask you the same question to your face would you use the same reply? Don't forget they are our customers.
I didn't think ATCO's could get so easily rattled!!.
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I must say though, I do agree with P7. I think it really is a shame pilot's don't ever know the real overall picture on busy a sector/position. I've had a real eye opener requests and moans since I've been doing the LARS service for the past month or so ago with the VFR a/c. I've had a pilot moan like crazy coz I invited an a/c to 'pass his message' (I had some very sketchy pre-noted info on a rough running engine) ahead of him after I had told him to standby, a prime example of how pilot's don't know the real picture but are still happy to complain.
Last edited by NINE-3; 24th Jul 2004 at 23:45.
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here here P7, getting fed up of the lack of professionalism on the R/T of late at LHR. Ever thought of listening to the freq before you transmit? nah thought not!
Our sick, silly and unprofessional attitude has led to the daily movement record being broken a number of times in the last few weeks, and a lot of the airfield is being dug up. Do pilots ever say thanks? Do they hell! No more its an offer of advice on how our job should be done. No surprise we are a bit easily rattled!
And to the pilot of the SAS 737 who when arriving at the back of a queue of 22 at the holding point yesterday afternoon, did you really think there would be a serious answer to the question "whats our number in sequence"
Our sick, silly and unprofessional attitude has led to the daily movement record being broken a number of times in the last few weeks, and a lot of the airfield is being dug up. Do pilots ever say thanks? Do they hell! No more its an offer of advice on how our job should be done. No surprise we are a bit easily rattled!
And to the pilot of the SAS 737 who when arriving at the back of a queue of 22 at the holding point yesterday afternoon, did you really think there would be a serious answer to the question "whats our number in sequence"
