EGNT Controlled Airspace
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EGNT Controlled Airspace
I have just seen a document outlining the proposed new Controlled Airspace for EGNT. I had better keep my comments to myself but I will say this your not that busy!!!!!
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Lizsdad
Speaking as some one who knows how busy EGNT is I would say the proposed airspace is on the modest side and any way don't you plan airspace a few years ahead, considering how long it takes to get it!
By the way by the end of May the running 12 month pax figures had just gone thru 4.3million pax (5 million by Dec possibly) and we have just under 80,000 movements, mainly public transport now!
Speaking as some one who knows how busy EGNT is I would say the proposed airspace is on the modest side and any way don't you plan airspace a few years ahead, considering how long it takes to get it!
By the way by the end of May the running 12 month pax figures had just gone thru 4.3million pax (5 million by Dec possibly) and we have just under 80,000 movements, mainly public transport now!
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Could it be that the proximity to the Danger Areas and the relatively high number of civil / military incidents in this area are a factor which assist the case for establishing some form of controlled airspace ?
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Lizsdad
What is the point of your posting if you are not going to expand on your original comment?
10 DME ARC
Obviously you have seen the document, care to enlighten us?
Findo
What 'incidents' ?
Which Danger Areas? How does the establishment of CAS provide 'protection' from Danger Areas?
If, as I suspect, this thread is about a corridor (stepped up into the MRSA) running towards Aberdeen, it will not provide any increase in separation for ac routing in the middle air - why do these ac not use the existing CAS?
STH
What is the point of your posting if you are not going to expand on your original comment?
10 DME ARC
Obviously you have seen the document, care to enlighten us?
Findo
What 'incidents' ?
Which Danger Areas? How does the establishment of CAS provide 'protection' from Danger Areas?
If, as I suspect, this thread is about a corridor (stepped up into the MRSA) running towards Aberdeen, it will not provide any increase in separation for ac routing in the middle air - why do these ac not use the existing CAS?
STH
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lizsdad, exactly what sort of response did you expect by throwing this particular pebble into the pond?
As with any proposed airspace change, there is a rigorous consultation and safety management process to ensure that a balanced and mutually agreeable result is achieved. I would speculate that the latest Newcastle, Spadeadam and TALLA sector proposal will follow this process.
As with any proposed airspace change, there is a rigorous consultation and safety management process to ensure that a balanced and mutually agreeable result is achieved. I would speculate that the latest Newcastle, Spadeadam and TALLA sector proposal will follow this process.
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Informal consultation went out on the 7th June, before this we’ve had years of negotiations with the military to find an acceptable compromise. Link below.
http://www.newcastleinternational.co.../Newcastle.pdf
It does stem from multitude of airproxes and recent AIB recommendations have backed up our case! The airport as I have already said is getting busier so why shouldn’t the travelling public of the northeast get the protection other airports of equal size get? If airspace was still allocated on amount of traffic then P18 should have happened at least 10 years previous, and that’s just for our traffic!
This only really covers the routes to the South so still expect to see airliners arr/dep to the West, North and East!
The airway North bound I believe is more advanced than we are so expect it (I last heard) within this year. I believe though the base leaving the NEW is FL165? So we still have to go thru FIR to get in/out!
http://www.newcastleinternational.co.../Newcastle.pdf
It does stem from multitude of airproxes and recent AIB recommendations have backed up our case! The airport as I have already said is getting busier so why shouldn’t the travelling public of the northeast get the protection other airports of equal size get? If airspace was still allocated on amount of traffic then P18 should have happened at least 10 years previous, and that’s just for our traffic!
This only really covers the routes to the South so still expect to see airliners arr/dep to the West, North and East!
The airway North bound I believe is more advanced than we are so expect it (I last heard) within this year. I believe though the base leaving the NEW is FL165? So we still have to go thru FIR to get in/out!
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SirToppamHat
I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer above.
errrrr ... Danger Areas are not penetrated and CAS is not penetrated so the two types of traffic don't mix.
Because it is hugely expensive to take the detours 24/7 to avoid traffic which can generally be 99% predicted and segragated by a system that was more interested in safety than exercising their "rights" to fly in the FIR and endanger themselves.
What 'incidents' ?
I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer above.
Which Danger Areas? How does the establishment of CAS provide 'protection' from Danger Areas?
why do these ac not use the existing CAS?
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FINDO - It may be expensive to take detours, but one should question the ethics of operators who, in knowing the "additional risks" (whatever these may be), choose to expose the unknowing public to flight in uncontrolled airspace.
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Findo
I still see no evidence to support your claim, just generalisations. However, I do accept that the activities taking place north of Newcastle cause concern for people transiting between there and Aberdeen direct at medium level - let's leave it at that shall we?
Still don't buy the Danger Area Case. Surely increasing the amount of Class A increases the probability of penetration?
I don't actually understand the latter part of your last sentence, but I do not consider that the mostly military traffic in that area is anything like 99% predictable. Sixty percent tops! I am astonished that you suggest cost overrides safety as the only real factor forcing traffic to go direct rather than via CAS.
STH
I still see no evidence to support your claim, just generalisations. However, I do accept that the activities taking place north of Newcastle cause concern for people transiting between there and Aberdeen direct at medium level - let's leave it at that shall we?
Still don't buy the Danger Area Case. Surely increasing the amount of Class A increases the probability of penetration?
I don't actually understand the latter part of your last sentence, but I do not consider that the mostly military traffic in that area is anything like 99% predictable. Sixty percent tops! I am astonished that you suggest cost overrides safety as the only real factor forcing traffic to go direct rather than via CAS.
STH
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Can't see the justification for this extension given current traffic levels at NT , although I can see that it would make vectoring easier for NT tfc to/from the south.
Airfields like East Midlands have to make do with tiny zones that are quite insufficient for their current needs.
My view is that we should concentrate on real problems and let the CAA/AIB/MATO tackle the issue of FIR conflicts in the North East.
Airfields like East Midlands have to make do with tiny zones that are quite insufficient for their current needs.
My view is that we should concentrate on real problems and let the CAA/AIB/MATO tackle the issue of FIR conflicts in the North East.
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I think you will find that East Midlands have just had a major extension to its CAS, and I think you’ll find the use of airspace around Newcastle much different.
As for working out the problem of FIR conflictions, over the years we have tried and are still trying to resolve problems with the military. For example we now talk to most low level gap transits. We are a co-opted airfield and provide a comprehensive service to the military, low level let down/climb outs, LARS transits, Practise Pans, PD's, middle air transits and airways transits. The airfield is used for emergency diversions on so many occasions we are exempt from a lot of the yearly emergency training!
Yet we still come across the Military doctrine it’s our airspace (the FIR) and airliners shouldn’t be there!
As I have already said we have spent a lot of time talking to the military and local airspace users about the airspace, that’s why its taken so long to apply for, P18 has been in over a year! We feel the airspace is a good compromise, but consultation is just that, so get your 12p worth in now! Empty winging on prune doesn’t do that!
As for working out the problem of FIR conflictions, over the years we have tried and are still trying to resolve problems with the military. For example we now talk to most low level gap transits. We are a co-opted airfield and provide a comprehensive service to the military, low level let down/climb outs, LARS transits, Practise Pans, PD's, middle air transits and airways transits. The airfield is used for emergency diversions on so many occasions we are exempt from a lot of the yearly emergency training!
Yet we still come across the Military doctrine it’s our airspace (the FIR) and airliners shouldn’t be there!
As I have already said we have spent a lot of time talking to the military and local airspace users about the airspace, that’s why its taken so long to apply for, P18 has been in over a year! We feel the airspace is a good compromise, but consultation is just that, so get your 12p worth in now! Empty winging on prune doesn’t do that!
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Isn't all this due to changed perceptions of the acceptability of risk over the last few years, rather than any actual change in the risk?
Think of the times 20+ years ago when you had all those Air Anglia/Air UK F-27s and sundry other turboprops chugging up and down the east coast in Class G all the way, regularly being buzzed and intercepted by military traffic which was far greater in numbers then than now. Plus you had hundreds of USAF F-111s in the UK then - regular "visitors" to controlled airspace!
The proposals as posted by 10 DME ARC don't seem to me to give much greater protection against airproxes with the military - just greater scope for vectoring on to final a bit further out when EGNT gets busy.
I see the proposal is to raise the base of the western chunk of the CTA from 1500ft to 3000ft - presumably that was a concession to the military?
And what's the reasoning behind raising the CTR/CTA ceiling from FL75 to FL105?
Think of the times 20+ years ago when you had all those Air Anglia/Air UK F-27s and sundry other turboprops chugging up and down the east coast in Class G all the way, regularly being buzzed and intercepted by military traffic which was far greater in numbers then than now. Plus you had hundreds of USAF F-111s in the UK then - regular "visitors" to controlled airspace!
The proposals as posted by 10 DME ARC don't seem to me to give much greater protection against airproxes with the military - just greater scope for vectoring on to final a bit further out when EGNT gets busy.
I see the proposal is to raise the base of the western chunk of the CTA from 1500ft to 3000ft - presumably that was a concession to the military?
And what's the reasoning behind raising the CTR/CTA ceiling from FL75 to FL105?
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LEAVE NCL ALONE !
What a great place to operate in and out of.
You get a good service from MAN until north of POL, then the Geordies take over and let you do, the voodoo, that you do, so well !
Radar service, no problems, no delays, unless you are following EZY, why screw it up with controlled airspace ?
The Northern chaps and chapesses keep us and the WABC pilots apart, we get the job done and everyone is happy
What a great place to operate in and out of.
You get a good service from MAN until north of POL, then the Geordies take over and let you do, the voodoo, that you do, so well !
Radar service, no problems, no delays, unless you are following EZY, why screw it up with controlled airspace ?
The Northern chaps and chapesses keep us and the WABC pilots apart, we get the job done and everyone is happy
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Jav - Thanks, I thought the same when I came here a good few years ago, i.e. who needs CAS!
But things have changed, we have got busier, when I first came here we were pushing 1.5M pax’s we are now talking 5M this year!
I saw the light around seven years ago, I was controlling a BA 767, sub on the LHR, it was in the days of NORCA which I was in, I had to give the a/c severe avoiding action against 2 F3’s ( I believe ) the 76 eventually ended up doing a large 360 back on track! I thought does the travelling public of the NE deserve this!
I could mention the Tucano doing aero’s between 5000 and 8000ft 2nm outside of the zone! The well noted Jag doing an afterburner pull out of low level (not emergency) through cloud without a radar service which produced what has been described as the closet air prox investigated. All this happened in or near the area we are proposing the extra CAS.
I don’t mean to knock the mil as I have said before we have a good working relationship generally and I could mention a good few civil incidents, but at the speed most fast jets travel around the area, ya average C150 is much easier to miss.
But things have changed, we have got busier, when I first came here we were pushing 1.5M pax’s we are now talking 5M this year!
I saw the light around seven years ago, I was controlling a BA 767, sub on the LHR, it was in the days of NORCA which I was in, I had to give the a/c severe avoiding action against 2 F3’s ( I believe ) the 76 eventually ended up doing a large 360 back on track! I thought does the travelling public of the NE deserve this!
I could mention the Tucano doing aero’s between 5000 and 8000ft 2nm outside of the zone! The well noted Jag doing an afterburner pull out of low level (not emergency) through cloud without a radar service which produced what has been described as the closet air prox investigated. All this happened in or near the area we are proposing the extra CAS.
I don’t mean to knock the mil as I have said before we have a good working relationship generally and I could mention a good few civil incidents, but at the speed most fast jets travel around the area, ya average C150 is much easier to miss.
