Hong Kong ATC Question

[Thunderbug]

Done a few trips in to HKG recently and find the ATC routeing and requests, to be, on the face of it, confusingly inefficient.

We arrive via Sierra and then fly past the airfield at 20,000'+ to go on a scenic tour of the South China Sea for 20 minutes while we slowly descend back towards the airport.

I appreciate you have traffic coming from all directions; you have Macau airspace to the West and although "One country" there are diffently "two systems" precluding more manouevering to the North.

But why such a long, slow (250kts or less from 50 miles out) procedure? Do you ever give shortcuts inside the Sierra2A procedure?

And my last moan: Why ask for 160kts on base leg at 20miles out, with traffic way ahead. 160kts at our arrival weight on a 744 means gear down and land flap - not efficient or quiet!

Happy to be enlightened..........

T'Bug

[FWA NATCA]

Thunderbug,

I didn't know a B747 could go that slow, even with all the laundry hanging out.

Mike

[ClearedIGS]

G'Day T'Bug,

* "S" was dictated to Hong Kong by the PRC.
* Due ZGGG traffic paterns, FL170 is the lowest transfer level
without individual coordination.
* ZGJD airspace lies under ZGGG so FL130 would be the lowest
available but this is only rarely conceded.

RWY07

Most non-local operators cross "S" above 300 Kts IAS and therefore an "under control" left turn for base is not practical. Most "Local Crews" Cathay & Dragonair, call prior to ZUH DVOR and reqest expected track mile from "S". This allows radar (134.3) to consult the Flow Controller, find out his plan, & in turn, if a short-cut is to be offered, allows for the crews to set up the aircraft & "the girls" to ready the cabin.
Experience in the past has shown several things in relation to short-cuts.
1. Aircrew not ready - aircraft makes a high speed, large radius turn and loses us several slots in the sequence. (This totally eliminates the desired effect of greater efficiency.)
2. "The girls" are not ready and so the aircraft requires delay after being brought into high density/complex situation.
3.Too often, the B744 in particular will reduce to 210 Kts IAS at 40nm from touchdown, in order to lose height due to the short-cut. This gets the aircraft totally out of sync with the speeds of other aircraft in the sequence & so slots are lost.
4. Aircraft on short-cuts too often go-around due unstable/too fast / too high or "the girls" were not ready. The CAD here takes a very dim view of go-arounds & often castigate the controllers, even though crews have advised that they were "happy" to continue the approach.

Except in exceptional circumstances, (usually the result of bad WX in VHHH), rarely will an aircraft fly the full S2A/B STAR. A minimum of 60% of "S" arrivals will only fly 45-65 nm to touchdown for RWY 07 after "S". As for the rest, big corners are cut off the STAR with radar vectors. If you have not been on the recieving end of a short-cut, it is probably to do with your arrival time with other ultra long haul aircraft through "S". Remember we have New York/Chicago/Europe flights all arriving about the same time each day. Our bottom line is the least average over-all delay for all aircraft, not just yours.

RWY 25

The arrival sequence would probably offer the oportunity for 60% of "S" arrivals to turn left at "S" for downwind - BUT - the left turn places the arrivals in direct conflict with all VHHH & VMMC departures, VMMC arrivals and all through area traffic from points south to land at ZGGG & ZGSZ. For this reason, left turns out of "S" are a carefully considered NON-STANDARD practice that is only entertained when the integrity of the "system safety" will not be compromised.

Your reference to speed.

RWY 07

Too many aircraft fly at different speeds from published requirements. It only takes an A340/A330 to be doing 140 Kts IAS on an 8 nm final (instead of just starting to reduce to 150-160Kts by 4nm as published), and all of a sudden the following aircraft have to be brought back to minimum speeds, (like 160 Kts/20nm from touchdown). Be advised that Base & Final for 07 offer NIL manouvering room. We are working with a 2nm funnel on base between terrain on the right and Chinese controlled non-transgression zone on the left. This leaves us with speed as the ONLY option. Final is also similarly restricted because of terrain on the right & VMMC departures/ZGSZ approach traffic on the left.

Our limitations.

Yes we have them & yes it is 1 country 2 systems. We use feet - they use metres. They use 10 minutes separation - we us 5nm on radar (3nm inside 30nm) We have the same number of airports as London, all with different rules, separation standards, airspace structure etc. The airsace around Hong Kong is probably one of the most unusual and complex in the world and the constant increase in traffic is not making it any easier.

Flow Management

Our present traffic levels allow us to use "miles in trail" from the feeder sectors. This reduces staffing level requirements but also also keeps a lot of flexibility in the system. It could be seen, however as a limitation because we won't give you an ELT as a timed flow control method would, however, as gaps open and close we can adjust our sequence to provide optimum spacing on final.

Help us to help you.

When inboud thru "S", call at or even up to 3 minutes prior to ZUH DVOR. By this time, we have recieved the transfer details from ZGGG and will be able to radar identify you. If not already done, your call will initiate coordination with the "FLOW" and you will be able to obtain your expected track miles. This will in turn allow you and "the girls" to be prepared.

Recap
1. "S" as the inbound point is dictated by the PRC.
2. ZGGG traffic levels continue to explode. With under-staffing, 4 separate airspace users at "S" and limited radar across the border, our Mainland friends do a great job of just getting you to "S". When traffic/workload permits, levels below FL170 at "S" are coordinated.
3. The inconsistant compliance with the Hong Kong AIP to call us on 124.3 prior to "S" does not allow us to have a definitive plan for all arrivals (other than issue the respective STAR and sort it out when we can)
4. HK ATC experience of unprepared crews on short-cuts dictates caution needs to be exercised (No appologies here)
5. Airspace limitations for 07 dictate that severe speed control is the quickest legitimate option.
6. Non-compliance by aircrew of PUBLISHED speed control is the most common factor for a sequence to fall apart.
7. Yes we have limitations and I contend that these are not induced by the operational controller.

Finally, I guess you are British Airways crew. The next time you know you will be in Hong Kong get in contact with ATC and arrange a visit. You are always welcome. If you don't want to do that, if you buy the beer, I'll meet you at a pub and we can discuss things there.

[Ya Zi]

Don't be scared of using the spoilers. I'm amazed at how many people are!

If you know track shortening is available prior to SIERA, get the speed back to 250 at SIERA, get the boards out and you will find the controller will adjust your track accordingly. This is what the locals do and you will find only a small tour of the South China Sea is necessary - even on the 07s.

Works nearly every time, even in a MLW 747!

[bekolblockage]

"Flow Controller" - What Flow Controller??? Part of the problem is that nobody in the room has any real idea of the landing sequence or delay required for individual aircraft. Although we supposedly run a 2 feeder system it ends up being 2 + SIERA drop-ins wherever they fit.

Oh, and getting a 12% pay cut as a reward for increasing traffic at 10% per annum tends to dampen your enthusiasm for expediting traffic.

[throw a dyce]

Although in my time there I was only a Tower Flower it seemed that the system was somewhat odd as Bekol says.As far as I'm aware they still don't run minimum vortex down final as ''that's a bit radical''.(might cause a go-around and a gweilo gets suspended)
So delays mount up in the sky because of wasted space.I believe they have sim mode on both runways now,so whats the problem?
They also need a final approach director to do the last 30 miles to nail speeds and spacings instead of 2 co-ordinators.Get one of those guys to take the load off of Dep and App.Even little airports run this system and it's far more efficient.
Nice to see that the CAD is still rewarding you guys for loyalty and making the system work.Since I got home we've had 4 pay rises so we're catching up a bit quicker.

[bekolblockage]

Too many aircraft fly at different speeds from published requirements.

and

Non-compliance by aircrew of PUBLISHED speed control is the most common factor for a sequence to fall apart.

That would probably be because hardly anybody gets to fly the PUBLISHED STAR procedure - not just from SIERA but anywhere!

Vectors all over the sky without any real plan means everyone is second guessing where they are going to go and of course many of the lesser experienced guys start slowing it down earlier.

You're right Throw a , the desire to hang on to the (magnificent) Kai Tak past and claim that HK is "special" even after 6 years at CLK is a bit rich.
I recall one of your best quotes was that they wouldn't be happy until they dug up the LLZ aerial, planted it on a hill near Tung Chung, put the chequerboard on top of Cathay City and had the aircraft fly at Lantau Peak at a 45 degree angle to the runway until a mile final. Everything would be right again with the world.

We would kill for a Final Director but staffing precludes it at the moment - and not likely to get better in the near future.

P.S. Did I mention the pay cuts? If you think we're pi$$ed off now, wait til Jan 1st when we get another 3% cut. Stand by for the SIERA2 C/D STAR(thats the loooooooong one) and a lot more holding.

[throw a dyce]

So they never adopted the IGS Mark 2,Shame.There's always the Kai Tak 13 IGS,TD,Lamma,Soko,Lantau,Visual App for 07R/L!!Oops forgot No visual approaches allowed at CLK.Makes every landing an Autoland....Hmmmm

I think Thunderbug has a valid point.If they fly in and out of the London TMA then they are used to min vortex on final.They go to HK and can see from Tcas that gaps are bigger and they are going slower further out.

As for Cleared IGS's point the HK airspace is among the most unusal and complex in the world.This is a bit of an exaggeration in comparison with for example the London TMA where Heathrow and Gatwick,have more movements (Over double in Heathrow's case) ,with Stansted getting close as well.But they don't have half the South China Sea to vector aircraft around in.The complexitiy seems to go back to turning CLK back into Kai Tak,with some of the steam driven way of doing things.

When Heathrow go on to any form of reduced capacity.Single runway,23 ops, Cat 3 conditions whatever and there are always over an hour plus delays for domestic traffic.This is standard practice at CLK.It has been working on reduced capacity for 6 years now.So why isn't CLK working on full capacity now? Don't know(10 bucks).

I've been out of there too long to comment on the staffing situation but as Bekol says, cutting the guys wages at a time when traffic is rising is a recipe for disaster.HK pay is no longer well ahead of the rest when you look at Nats Band 5 pay scale.When's the next ad in Flight?

[Thunderbug]

Folk, especially ClearedIGS

Thanks for the excellent replies. As always with these situations there is more to it than what meets the eye. Pilots tend to have a simplistic view of ATC - just need to get all the ducks in a row on approach and don't let any of them get too close. On the ground the ATC guys are dealing with other issues and a bigger picture.

Some good hints of how to get a shorter approach and I shall be trying them out at my next visit.

On my approaches I have always been poised and ready for a short cut. I call 3 min prior to boundary (although the only referance I found to this amongst our paperwork is a small notation on the HKG local area chart); the cabin is prepared earlier and I don't delay descent once its given. I'm not adverse to the use of spoilers either. I suppose going in with this expectation and then getting the complete "S" procedure increases frustration.

Thanks again, its very useful to know what you are dealing with - shared picture , shared plan and all that....

You got the airline correct and thanks for the invite I might just take you up on the offer of a visit to ATC - and the beer

Overall how well do the Speedbirds comply with published speed controls, calling prior to "S", etc.. - would a wider awareness of the issues at VHHH improve matters?

T'Bug

[bekolblockage]

Count me in for a beer - and we could discuss the rugby too!

[throw a dyce]

Bekol :
If it's in Nov count me in too.Don't forget the tennis tonight with Tiger Tim.

T'Bug. Hope you enjoy a beer with HKATC.They are a great bunch.If you're out training then come up to EGPD for a look sometime.6 mile final guaranteed