Vacuum Pump

[garf12]

I was watching an AOPA saftey video on spacial disorientation, and at the beginning of the video they had an ATC recording from a real accident. The pilot radioed in and said that he was IFR in IMC at like FL180 with complete vacuum pump failure. The ATC didnt seem concerned at all and didnt even know what vacuum pump failure ment. I know some ATC people are pilots so they would know what this means, but is stuff like this taught to ATC people? Im just kind of curious it just kind of surprised me that they wouldnt know the importance of this.

(The ATC lack of knowledge didnt hurt the situation, but the pilot did get killed, he went in to a spiral, or atleast thought he was in a spiral due to spacial disorientation.)

[StillDark&Hungry]

Garf

I'll be honest and say would have no idea what was meant if that was said to me

However, it probably works both ways - after our computer failure over here recently I'm not sure what % of aircrew would have realised if/how their ATC service had been affected.

[garf12]

A total vacuum pump failure of primary and backup as was in this case leaves both the AI and DG inop.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I doubt I would have taken much notice, unless he had said "Pan" or "Mayday"; then ATC knows there is a serious problem.

Can't expect all ATCOs to know the finer points of how an aeroplane works. How much does the average pilot know about PRFs, tangential fade or MTI?

[AlanM]

Maybe they did know roughly what it meant - or was seeking guidance from another.

The day we all know each others jobs inside out will never come.

Also - as HD says, unless someone says pan/mayday then don't expect my voice to raise a semi-tone.......... We are always trained to be calm during emergencies. This stops us running around the Ops Room scraming "they are all gonna die!!"

So many of these threads hark back to the fact that we no longer get a PPL as part of our training, the Assisted Flying Scheme has ceased, and Fam Flights are virtually non-exisitent. (I tried to book one with a subsidiary of world's fave airline 6 weeks ago to be told it was "out of Season!")

[redsnail]

In light a/c a vacuum pump failure* is a big deal if in IMC.
The vac system drives the gyros that provides attitude and heading info. (Artificial horizon and directional gyro).
When these go it's hard work. Now down to the VSI+ Alt, standby compass and turn and bank to keep it straight and level.

I agree with Heathrow Director, a Pan or Mayday call should have gone out.

Bigger piston twins and turbines have other systems and don't use vac pumps. (Thank goodness)

*usually the pump is ok but the little plastic drive shaft has sheared because of a vane sticking temporarily. Had many of them go on me.

[spekesoftly]

I wouldn't expect the majority of ATCOs to appreciate the specific significance of a 'vacuum pump failure', unless they also had some light aircraft flying experience. Such detailed knowledge of aircraft systems was not covered by any ATC training course that I recall.

Quite recently, all UK ATCOs should have received a copy of "Aircraft Emergencies - Considerations for Controllers", issued by the UK CAA Safety Regulation Group. It's an excellent general guide, but aimed primarily at commercial air transport, and inevitably cannot cover individual aircraft systems.

[BALIX]

In the good old days, CAA ATCO Cadets were given PPLs, or at least the chance to get one. I seem to remember being told about vacuum pumps at the time and also being given a lesson in flying 'limited panel'.

Needless to say, training nowadays is geared to get students through the college as quickly and as cheaply as possible and flying training was abandoned years ago. True, it was quite an expensive way of finding out what a vacuum pump was but I still have happy memories of five weeks at the Bournemouth Flying Club back in '82.

[Keygrip]

I've worked with that video - in a presentation mode (rather than just watching).

Whilst ATC was criticised for not being more helpful (which I, personally, thought was a bit unfair), it has always been highlighted that the pilot in that aircraft was greatly at fault for not declaring an emergency.

I was taught by an ATC'er at Manchester, many years ago - "Do not fly with a problem. Pass it on to the ground, let them decide how to handle it - you fly the aircraft."

The ATC in the video was giving all sorts of instructions and frequency changes to the aircraft whilst not understanding the level of workload that the (single) pilot was going through.

If ATC had known about the workload then a great deal of the instructions could have been avoided.

The pilot should have declared. I note the Texas address of the original message poster - the FAR's even instruct you to advise ATC if your VOR or DME have failed - never mind the major instrumentation when in IMC.

[411A]

Have found that most ATC folks are acutely aware of 'problems' that can occur in light aircraft (in the USA anyway), and will do their utmost to ensure that any assistance requested is provided.

The problem is, if non-standard terms are used, they may not get the picture.

You absolutely have to let 'em know straightaway, for maximim benefit, in language that they are familiar with...in the USA 'Pan' simply will not work.

EMERGENCY on the other hand, will roll out the red carpet of any assistance. They drop everything else, other aircraft are sent away (to hold or alternate airfields), fire services are notified, and any other possible assistance is provided.

But, you gotta let 'em know, otherwise you might find yourself up s..t creek without a paddle.

[ILS 119.5]

It seems to me that familiarasion between both Pilots and ATC needs looking at. Both disciplines need to get together and educate each other. Unfortunately management and SRG do not follow this policy. It is a real shame that the UK regularity body do not "in their official capacity" do something about this.

[FWA NATCA]

Those of us who have been controllers for some time know how to handle most of these problems, and how to best assist the pilot.

The problem is, since the demise of the FAM program our newer, younger controllers who are not also trained pilots have no clue what it means when a pilot says his vacuum pump quit, or my electrical system has failed, or the myraid of other problems that Mr Murphy likes to throw at pilots.

For you General Aviation Pilots, I strongly request that you offer to take the controllers from your local airport up for a flight so that they can see first hand how everything on your side of the microphone works. Get together with the Quality Assurance person and hold a safety seminar and discuss between controllers and pilots how to best assist the pilot during specific problems.

SAFETY is a two way street, and communication is the key componet!

Mike R
NATCA FWA

[garf12]

I agree that the pilot should have declared an emergency. I was very surprised that he never did.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I honestly would have thought a vacuum pump was that little contraption some men use to try and extend their pen.is, so as an ATC, unless he declared an emergency I would have been none the wiser. Although I have to say as a rule if a pilot announces anything has failed I would confirm operations were normal, just in case.

[Scott Voigt]

Another problem in the US is that they have pretty much dumbed down our training program as far as aviation knowledge. They teach you about weather and separating aircraft. How and why and airplane flies is up to the pilot sadly and unless you have a good OJT traininer who can pass on this sort of information, chances are real good that you aren't going to get it.

regards

Scott

[DangerousD]

This is quite an interesting thread because at this very moment in time the college of atc is just starting its newly designed courses. The ojti's (certainly up in manchester) were invited to a presentation and asked for their opinions on the new set up which for the area guys means a whole lot more sim time but a whole lot less airfield and light aircraft appreciation. It transpires that they think it costs upwards of £500k to completely train an atco and there is a budget of about £1500 per atco for the percived niceties on the course ie the 15 hours flying training and the BA course with fam flights and flight sim. Alot af dicussion was raised about the relevance of the flying to atco's who are destined to work in the 'area' side of things and the distinct impression I got was that management would rather get rid of the flying traing altogether.

Now i'm not saying that because of the flying all atco's become experts on all things maechanical but because of the flying traing and the assisted flying scheme it meant that somewhere in the ops room might well be someone with first hand experience or knowledge that you could call upon in these very situations.

Just as an aside I will always ask the pilot if he requires any special handling if he mentions anything that I dont understand!!

[DFC]

It might be worth pointing out that the most dangerous part of a vacuum pump failure in IMC is the time period between the actual failure and the time when the pilot discovers that the reason for the heading constantly changing and speed/altitude fluctuations is that the suction gauge (which is often far across the pannel) shows a failure.

Often it is the ATCO that gets the first clue from unexpected erratic flying....and it is the ATCO that should follow their training and question such flying insted of simply cursing a stupid GA pilot who can't hold a heading.

Regards,

DFC

[PH-UKU]

DFC

Excellent point.

I had a 'stupid American' pilot (no disrespect intended guys)who 'couldn't hold his heading' a good few years ago. The penny didn't drop with me (but like many other posters, I don't think I would have been aware of the effects of a suction pump failure).
I was one of the first in NATS to get no flying training whatsoever.

I would blame NATS for its short-sighted, beancounter driven, cheap, parsimonious attitude to flying training. NATS managers would rather spend money sending ATCOs on courses to do Excel Spreadsheets than risk them doing something that might also be construed as 'fun'. Not that I'm bitter ..................

FWIW, I now have a PPL and after the IMC course, boy, do I know the significance of a suction pump. I try and pass on my knowledge whenever I can.

Anyway, as an aside, previous 'stupid American' hadn't declared any emergency, and was then also seen descending toward high ground below safety altitude after giving indication that he wasn't sure exactly where he was and in and out of cloud. Matter was resolved safely by giving him vectors over the sea to let down below cloud layer.

But, I learnt about controlling from that. And I guess he learnt about flying...... on a limited panel.