Oh come on then...if no-one else is going to take the plunge...
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Oh come on then...if no-one else is going to take the plunge...
...straight question:
Are newer, younger, fresher ATCOs less versed in basic knowledge of air-law, airmanship, PAN-OPS, MATS, CAP 413, AICs etc than they used to be?
Are newer, younger, fresher ATCOs less versed in basic knowledge of air-law, airmanship, PAN-OPS, MATS, CAP 413, AICs etc than they used to be?
Ohcirrej
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Actually Timothy, it's funny you should ask that. A certain senior instructor of an ab-initio ATC course not that many years ago revealed to her course that she had no idea of aircraft performance, and couldn't really care any less. She said she played the game by numbers. I think she's in jail now.
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A chap that has a rating now for close on 10 years wanted to let a B737-400 fly ahead of a B777 and make them the same speed!!! ( I thought only the french tried that) Just didnt know anything about aircraft performance and didnt care to improve his lack thereof either.
But the new guys are even worse. They are just not interested. All factors that will let you down when the inevitable emergency pops along.
But the new guys are even worse. They are just not interested. All factors that will let you down when the inevitable emergency pops along.
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<<A chap that has a rating now for close on 10 years wanted to let a B737-400 fly ahead of a B777 and make them the same speed!!! >>
But you didn't make clear if it was in an Area or Approach environment? In an Approach environment it happens hundreds of times a day and would not strike me as unusual. En route it is presumably a different kettle of fish!
But you didn't make clear if it was in an Area or Approach environment? In an Approach environment it happens hundreds of times a day and would not strike me as unusual. En route it is presumably a different kettle of fish!
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Yes, without a doubt. The interest in aviation has been replaced by the interest in £££ signs
If you wanted confirmation - this has to be a good start!
Aircraft types
If you wanted confirmation - this has to be a good start!
Aircraft types
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HEATHROW DIRECTOR
It was ACC. Speed difference is huge at FL340!!
But as Chilli Monster said: The interest lies purely in £ $ € !
I am just more worried about making stupid sounding climb and speed requests on frequency than what some other guys are
It was ACC. Speed difference is huge at FL340!!
But as Chilli Monster said: The interest lies purely in £ $ € !
I am just more worried about making stupid sounding climb and speed requests on frequency than what some other guys are
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Timothy...
In answer to your question YES they are less well versed, and often prospective ATCOs that I see have different motivation than I would consider to be ideal. (£££)
Over the past few years I have had more than a few "pre interview" people sit with me on RADAR. I enjoy explaining the basics of what I am doing, the systems that are available to me, and passing on a little bit of knowledge.
I usually ask the question somewhere along the line "Why do you want to become an ATCO then?". Rarely is the reply "Oh, I've always been interested in aviation" or "I went to an airport and found it all fascinating, and thought I want to do that".
The usual reply is a BLANK look, followed by something like "It looked like a good job" for which read "I saw the salary".
All well and good, but these are the people who will struggle. They will usually only want to know exactly what they need to know to pass an exam and no more. Aircraft performance and having an idea of exactly what is going on on the flight deck (airliner or GA) will have no interest for them. Worse still, they don't CARE! And they will dig very big holes for themselves. Possibly dangerous ones.
Fortunately there is a pretty robust training regime at most, indeed all, ATCUs in the UK and these people are usually weeded out. A few get through.
This "weeding out" process is a waste of the individuals time, the OJTIs time and the systems time. I lament this. Hence I have little faith in various HR departments ability to select the best people.
Now, as always it would be very wrong to tar everyone with the same brush, and I am aware that there are some very well motivated and interested people out there. Good luck to them all.
Rgds BEX
In answer to your question YES they are less well versed, and often prospective ATCOs that I see have different motivation than I would consider to be ideal. (£££)
Over the past few years I have had more than a few "pre interview" people sit with me on RADAR. I enjoy explaining the basics of what I am doing, the systems that are available to me, and passing on a little bit of knowledge.
I usually ask the question somewhere along the line "Why do you want to become an ATCO then?". Rarely is the reply "Oh, I've always been interested in aviation" or "I went to an airport and found it all fascinating, and thought I want to do that".
The usual reply is a BLANK look, followed by something like "It looked like a good job" for which read "I saw the salary".
All well and good, but these are the people who will struggle. They will usually only want to know exactly what they need to know to pass an exam and no more. Aircraft performance and having an idea of exactly what is going on on the flight deck (airliner or GA) will have no interest for them. Worse still, they don't CARE! And they will dig very big holes for themselves. Possibly dangerous ones.
Fortunately there is a pretty robust training regime at most, indeed all, ATCUs in the UK and these people are usually weeded out. A few get through.
This "weeding out" process is a waste of the individuals time, the OJTIs time and the systems time. I lament this. Hence I have little faith in various HR departments ability to select the best people.
Now, as always it would be very wrong to tar everyone with the same brush, and I am aware that there are some very well motivated and interested people out there. Good luck to them all.
Rgds BEX
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Don't know what most of those things are but EVERY day get given BA146 with engines burning up trying to stay ahead of A321/B777 etc trying not to fall out of the sky they're going so slow. Apparently this is the way forward...
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Well I am one of those potentials (course starting next year) that is wanting to get in for a love of everything aviation and controlling them things! So I will be making sure I understand the principles the hows and why's and the wot nots even if it goes beyond what I need to know.
All I know about the salary is that it pays well and that's all I need. It comes below Job Satisfaction, Responsibilty and Team work in my list. That is what I told both interviewers and the 4 or 5 controllers I visited beforehand.
Just my tuppence worth.
All I know about the salary is that it pays well and that's all I need. It comes below Job Satisfaction, Responsibilty and Team work in my list. That is what I told both interviewers and the 4 or 5 controllers I visited beforehand.
Just my tuppence worth.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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I wonder if it would be helpful if we business flyers were to take ATCOs with us, just to show them what it's like on the receiving end?
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Jerricho,
From what I remember of that particular senior instructor, she played with the numbers in other pursuits as well, not necessarily to her fiscal advantage.
Timothy,
Having worked in, and trained controllers in all three disciplines, I have always felt that a lack of aeronautical knowledge has its greatest effect in TMA, especially if tactical Flow to a single runway, rather than strategic flow to parallel runways , is used.
It is can also be a handicap where TMA airspace is restricted for whatever reason and there is a wide variety of aircraft types (C152 to B747) to manage. It by no means stops a person obtaining a rating, but it may make it harder for them to do so.
I regularly drove trainees mad by questioning them extensively during slack moments about the various aircraft that were on the screen at the time. They generally cursed me at the time, but soon learned that the best way to shut me up was to build up their own knowledge base.
Some even thanked me for it post-rating after some little gem of information had stuck in their mind and proved useful when things were resembling a dungheap rather than a rose garden.
sep
From what I remember of that particular senior instructor, she played with the numbers in other pursuits as well, not necessarily to her fiscal advantage.
Timothy,
Having worked in, and trained controllers in all three disciplines, I have always felt that a lack of aeronautical knowledge has its greatest effect in TMA, especially if tactical Flow to a single runway, rather than strategic flow to parallel runways , is used.
It is can also be a handicap where TMA airspace is restricted for whatever reason and there is a wide variety of aircraft types (C152 to B747) to manage. It by no means stops a person obtaining a rating, but it may make it harder for them to do so.
I regularly drove trainees mad by questioning them extensively during slack moments about the various aircraft that were on the screen at the time. They generally cursed me at the time, but soon learned that the best way to shut me up was to build up their own knowledge base.
Some even thanked me for it post-rating after some little gem of information had stuck in their mind and proved useful when things were resembling a dungheap rather than a rose garden.
sep
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Slightly off topic here but having had a look at the link that TEN-4 posted about the TBM crash. I don't understand how such a serious accident got such a ridiculously scant AAIB report. I mean, was it pilot error, a fault with the a/c, what recommendations were made, what conclusions were made? NONE!
Frankly, I think that report should be re-opened.
The accident report had nothing to do with ATC nor ATC knowledge or motivation. TEN-4's post was abusive, a personal attack on another PPRuNer, and also breached an individuals right to anonimity. Therefore he/she is now banned from the ATC Forum since it is not the way we operate here, or in our part of the industry. Regards PPRuNe Radar
Frankly, I think that report should be re-opened.
The accident report had nothing to do with ATC nor ATC knowledge or motivation. TEN-4's post was abusive, a personal attack on another PPRuNer, and also breached an individuals right to anonimity. Therefore he/she is now banned from the ATC Forum since it is not the way we operate here, or in our part of the industry. Regards PPRuNe Radar
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Another example:
I was instructing on a simulator session for radar trainees involving 'Emergencies and Fallbacks' at LACC. (Fallbacks are systems failures at London). It was on North Sea sector, which is of course predominately water with a limited number of diversion options.
When faced with a variety of emergencies ranging from pressurisation problems to engine failures, it became apparent that some of the trainees had no idea what airfields were available to them and which were suitable in terms of runway length etc. One guy didn't even know the runway orientation at Stansted, nor did he know where Norwich was.
By chance, they was a TBM7 with 'engine failure.' All but one of the trainees failed to appreciate that this was actually a major problem. One told him to maintain a FL on reaching, and others were asking which engine it was that failed...
(Which reminds me of an aprocryphal story from a few years back. A Tucano was transiting civil airspace in the early days of their arrival. Then the pilot piped up in a calm sort of way that he had an engine failure. The controller asked: "How many people on board and which engine has failed?" To which came the reply: " Me, and it!"
)
Back to the point: None of these trainees had, up until this point, bothered to look outside what was required to pass the exams or do the bread and butter of the sector. It is symptomatic of the way things are going now.
Hopefully, there will always be a more experienced planner or tactical with them who can help pull them out of the hole they get into.
I was instructing on a simulator session for radar trainees involving 'Emergencies and Fallbacks' at LACC. (Fallbacks are systems failures at London). It was on North Sea sector, which is of course predominately water with a limited number of diversion options.
When faced with a variety of emergencies ranging from pressurisation problems to engine failures, it became apparent that some of the trainees had no idea what airfields were available to them and which were suitable in terms of runway length etc. One guy didn't even know the runway orientation at Stansted, nor did he know where Norwich was.
By chance, they was a TBM7 with 'engine failure.' All but one of the trainees failed to appreciate that this was actually a major problem. One told him to maintain a FL on reaching, and others were asking which engine it was that failed...
(Which reminds me of an aprocryphal story from a few years back. A Tucano was transiting civil airspace in the early days of their arrival. Then the pilot piped up in a calm sort of way that he had an engine failure. The controller asked: "How many people on board and which engine has failed?" To which came the reply: " Me, and it!"
)Back to the point: None of these trainees had, up until this point, bothered to look outside what was required to pass the exams or do the bread and butter of the sector. It is symptomatic of the way things are going now.
Hopefully, there will always be a more experienced planner or tactical with them who can help pull them out of the hole they get into.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Back to the point: None of these trainees had, up until this point, bothered to look outside what was required to pass the exams or do the bread and butter of the sector. It is symptomatic of the way things are going now.
Regarding the TBM business, I clearly missed a little spat. I have tried to PM PPRuNe Radar, but his inbox is full (don\'t moderators get an extra big one?) so could someone kindly PM me the gist of Ten-4\'s contribution?
Ta
Timothy
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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And indeed I have received said PM, thank you!
So I was a passenger in an accident. It's a bit like girls in some parts of the world being executed for being raped.
I can only thank PPRuNe Radar for moderating appropriately.
So I was a passenger in an accident. It's a bit like girls in some parts of the world being executed for being raped.
I can only thank PPRuNe Radar for moderating appropriately.
Ohcirrej
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Sep , that's the one. While I fully deserved what happened to me, I would hate to think others suffered the same fate simply because they didn't play her game.
Following the aviation background/interest side of things, since I started here in Canada there have been 2 ab-initio course that have come from the college to start their centre training. There does seem to be a noticable percentage of guys and gals that have flying backgrounds, from an ex-flying instructor to various stages of licence aquisition. Is this starting to become more prevalent elsewhere?
Following the aviation background/interest side of things, since I started here in Canada there have been 2 ab-initio course that have come from the college to start their centre training. There does seem to be a noticable percentage of guys and gals that have flying backgrounds, from an ex-flying instructor to various stages of licence aquisition. Is this starting to become more prevalent elsewhere?