Radar Service in France
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Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: London
Radar Service in France
Last weekend I experienced the new experimental radar service for VFR traffic in France for the first time.
It struck me that the FISO/Controller (a moot point as the service is FIS, but uses radar) was having a very hard time coming to terms with his role. He was giving instructions left right and centre and, when I said I was changing frequency told me I was to remain with him as I was in his control area. This is all in Class E.
Seems they still have a way to go, but a huge improvement over the silence we are used to!
It struck me that the FISO/Controller (a moot point as the service is FIS, but uses radar) was having a very hard time coming to terms with his role. He was giving instructions left right and centre and, when I said I was changing frequency told me I was to remain with him as I was in his control area. This is all in Class E.
Seems they still have a way to go, but a huge improvement over the silence we are used to!
Thread Starter
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: London
As one who enjoys the casual silent ease of a VFR transit across France in a small aeroplane, in what way is this an "improvement"?
On a normal day I might well not use the radio and chat to my passenger as I have traditionally done, as you know.
Have you decided to do a "Harry" on me on this Forum, by any chance?
Pegase Driver
Joined: May 1997
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From: Europe
The good thing about flying VFR in France is that you can choose.
You can set your SSR to 7000 and call nobody. You can swich off both SSR and VHF and still be legal, or you can call Info and get sometimes traffic info based on radar.
All this in all classes of airspace up to and including E .
Once you have understood the above, you realise that listening to the AFIS guy on Brest or Paris Info will only give you a false sense of security since he will only pass you traffic info on the traffic he/she sees and knows about...
Gliders very, very rarely call Info for instance
Look outside is still and by far the best option.
remember what the letters VFR stand for...
That said if you go into some Class E TMAs where RYR is flying ( e.g Poitiers) I would definitively advise to set transponder and listen to the CTR Frequency , because there is a 737 out there trying to get you.....
You can set your SSR to 7000 and call nobody. You can swich off both SSR and VHF and still be legal, or you can call Info and get sometimes traffic info based on radar.
All this in all classes of airspace up to and including E .
Once you have understood the above, you realise that listening to the AFIS guy on Brest or Paris Info will only give you a false sense of security since he will only pass you traffic info on the traffic he/she sees and knows about...
Gliders very, very rarely call Info for instance
Look outside is still and by far the best option.
remember what the letters VFR stand for...
That said if you go into some Class E TMAs where RYR is flying ( e.g Poitiers) I would definitively advise to set transponder and listen to the CTR Frequency , because there is a 737 out there trying to get you.....
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From: TL487591
You can swich off both SSR and VHF and still be legal
The reference is the French AIP ENR 1.6
2D
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You are very right 2D . Point taken. This was made for TCAS.
But there is unfortunately a difference between the book and the reality :
For instance in the glider communauty, not so many machines are SSR equipped, but even when they are , they do not put it on permanently as the current Becker empties the batteries in a few hours, they normally keep it for entering class D ( enough of those since the 1st of May !)
Something else not possibly widely known : this radar info service is based on a Secondary radar image only.
But there is unfortunately a difference between the book and the reality :
For instance in the glider communauty, not so many machines are SSR equipped, but even when they are , they do not put it on permanently as the current Becker empties the batteries in a few hours, they normally keep it for entering class D ( enough of those since the 1st of May !)
Something else not possibly widely known : this radar info service is based on a Secondary radar image only.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: N 43° 39' 54'' E 7° 12' 53''
As a reminder I would just like to say that this radar service for VFR is new as long as the Area Control Centers are concerned. Because when flight information service is provided by an approach, radar service was most of the time already available. Trouble is there wasn't any difference in the names of those organism (xxx Info), so it wasn't easy for pilots to understand who had radar and who had not . For example, I work in approach and we go up to FL175 and radar service including primary one has been available for quite a while !
The thing to know is that in ACCs FIS is not provided by "IFR " controllers, and that before this experimentation they had absolutely no right to use radar or even switch it on . When assistance was required by a pilot they would have to call for a "true" controller to come and talk to the pilot, and ... switch on the radar !
Sorry for the word "true", it's not meant to judge anybobody but that's the only word I could come with in this context. In fact there are two kind of controllers in France, in terms of status, the ones for ACCs and big airfields ( known as ICNAs) and the ones for smaller airfields and FIS in ACCs (TEEACs). The formation is different and shorter for the second kind , which meant that they had no right to use radar ( and the unions were very touchy on that point !) and their wages are lower.
The radar thing dates from a time when radar visualisation was something rare and expensive but it's slowly evolving now and the TEEACs start to get some radar screens on small fields. But at the time they're not fully qualified to use them... meaning that it's only for information and they should not use vectoring.
Another point is that there's a debate in France about the use of vectoring for VFR. There's no IMC rating in France as such, and "IMC rated" pilots are mostly only the commercial ones. So, the rules for the use of vectors for VFRs are not quite clear, the risk of course being the Vfr pilot going into the clouds. In fact the pilot has to request for vectoring and then the controller can only suggest a track.
One last thing. Somebody talked about this fake impression of security when in E airspace and in contact with FIS, the same is true as well for IFR traffics who might even be under radar vectors (it's not prohibited, only not recommended !). As a VFR you've got to be aware of the class of airspace you're flying in, but I very much doubt that the same is true for IFR.
The thing to know is that in ACCs FIS is not provided by "IFR " controllers, and that before this experimentation they had absolutely no right to use radar or even switch it on . When assistance was required by a pilot they would have to call for a "true" controller to come and talk to the pilot, and ... switch on the radar !
Sorry for the word "true", it's not meant to judge anybobody but that's the only word I could come with in this context. In fact there are two kind of controllers in France, in terms of status, the ones for ACCs and big airfields ( known as ICNAs) and the ones for smaller airfields and FIS in ACCs (TEEACs). The formation is different and shorter for the second kind , which meant that they had no right to use radar ( and the unions were very touchy on that point !) and their wages are lower.
The radar thing dates from a time when radar visualisation was something rare and expensive but it's slowly evolving now and the TEEACs start to get some radar screens on small fields. But at the time they're not fully qualified to use them... meaning that it's only for information and they should not use vectoring.
Another point is that there's a debate in France about the use of vectoring for VFR. There's no IMC rating in France as such, and "IMC rated" pilots are mostly only the commercial ones. So, the rules for the use of vectors for VFRs are not quite clear, the risk of course being the Vfr pilot going into the clouds. In fact the pilot has to request for vectoring and then the controller can only suggest a track.
One last thing. Somebody talked about this fake impression of security when in E airspace and in contact with FIS, the same is true as well for IFR traffics who might even be under radar vectors (it's not prohibited, only not recommended !). As a VFR you've got to be aware of the class of airspace you're flying in, but I very much doubt that the same is true for IFR.
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