Departing VFR in fog
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Hey Bookie 
I didn't say that you COULDN'T fly in the zone - just get the phone number from the AIC and if you PPR then it is OK.....subject to other traffic!!
I am on Saturday from 1330 so pm me with your callsign if you have PPR'd
I didn't say that you COULDN'T fly in the zone - just get the phone number from the AIC and if you PPR then it is OK.....subject to other traffic!!
I am on Saturday from 1330 so pm me with your callsign if you have PPR'd
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Alan,
Just to put you in the picture, if I depart IFR from Biggin for, say Edinburgh, it will cost me about EIGHTY MOTHER F
ING POUNDS.
If I am in the fog for fifteen seconds, that works out at £320 a minute
I strongly object to paying Eurocharges when I get no (or very little) service. For example, if I fly at night, after the entire LARS system shuts down, and never use the radio, I still have to pay NATS, a private company that has provided me with no service whatsoever.
I have no problem at all paying for flight on airways (though why I should and a TB20 shouldn't is beyond me), but the current system of making people like me pay a fortune for the whole journey if there is any hint of IFR at any point on the route is what leads us to take risks to avoid the charges.
The really silly thing is that the best way of not paying charges is to file an otherwise spurious VFR flight plan, thus making NATS do a whole lot of unnecessary work in order that they make no income!
The system is broke, but the chances of anyone fixing it are zilch, so I and the rest of us have to continue to buck it.
One very simple solution would be to release non-AOC aircraft below 5,700Kg from the charges.
Now...TAKE COVER, while TC_LTN explodes
Just to put you in the picture, if I depart IFR from Biggin for, say Edinburgh, it will cost me about EIGHTY MOTHER F
ING POUNDS.If I am in the fog for fifteen seconds, that works out at £320 a minute
I strongly object to paying Eurocharges when I get no (or very little) service. For example, if I fly at night, after the entire LARS system shuts down, and never use the radio, I still have to pay NATS, a private company that has provided me with no service whatsoever.
I have no problem at all paying for flight on airways (though why I should and a TB20 shouldn't is beyond me), but the current system of making people like me pay a fortune for the whole journey if there is any hint of IFR at any point on the route is what leads us to take risks to avoid the charges.
The really silly thing is that the best way of not paying charges is to file an otherwise spurious VFR flight plan, thus making NATS do a whole lot of unnecessary work in order that they make no income!
The system is broke, but the chances of anyone fixing it are zilch, so I and the rest of us have to continue to buck it.
One very simple solution would be to release non-AOC aircraft below 5,700Kg from the charges.
Now...TAKE COVER, while TC_LTN explodes
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SOLUTION!!!!
With todays computer systems this could be the way forward. You are given a squawk - and the computer tracks for how long you keep the sqauwk (certain ones for RIS/RAS/FIS)
Then you get a bill in the post for the service you received and it will work out how long/distance etc
ONE DAY I WILL BE CHIEF EXEC AND YOU WILL ALL BE IN TROUBLE!!
P.S. "Language Timothy!!!" - been waiting for years to say that mate.
Let's not divert from the main thread fella!!
With todays computer systems this could be the way forward. You are given a squawk - and the computer tracks for how long you keep the sqauwk (certain ones for RIS/RAS/FIS)
Then you get a bill in the post for the service you received and it will work out how long/distance etc
ONE DAY I WILL BE CHIEF EXEC AND YOU WILL ALL BE IN TROUBLE!!
P.S. "Language Timothy!!!" - been waiting for years to say that mate.
Let's not divert from the main thread fella!!
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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But this brings us full circle, does it add to safety to depart IFR under those circumstances?
Nothing I have heard makes me think so.
And the money is the difference between being able to afford it or not. £40 an hour is more than many people pay to fly in total...and it is being added onto my bill with no apparent benefit.
Nothing I have heard makes me think so.
And the money is the difference between being able to afford it or not. £40 an hour is more than many people pay to fly in total...and it is being added onto my bill with no apparent benefit.
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It adds to safety to not to depart at all if to do so would pose additional risk?
As the wise pilot says "it's far better being on the ground wishing to be in the air than being in the air wishing to be on the ground!".
As the wise pilot says "it's far better being on the ground wishing to be in the air than being in the air wishing to be on the ground!".
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If Timothy is making a private pleasure flight with absolutely no commercial pressure then there is absolutely no reason why he can not wait until the fog has cleared giving both legal and more enjoyable weather to fly in.
If on the other hand Timothy needs to get to Edinburgh for a business meeting then he is profiting from the trip and therefore can decide which is going to reduce that profit more - delay for VMC or pay Nav charges.
Having decided to pay Nav charges why not make the best use of the expense and make use of the services provided in return for payment of those charges - London FIS, Scottish FIS, Volmet, VOR/DME navaids are available at all times.
I think that this is penny pinching to be honnest. How much does it cost to fly the aircraft to and from Edinburgh?
Regards,
DFC
If on the other hand Timothy needs to get to Edinburgh for a business meeting then he is profiting from the trip and therefore can decide which is going to reduce that profit more - delay for VMC or pay Nav charges.
Having decided to pay Nav charges why not make the best use of the expense and make use of the services provided in return for payment of those charges - London FIS, Scottish FIS, Volmet, VOR/DME navaids are available at all times.
I think that this is penny pinching to be honnest. How much does it cost to fly the aircraft to and from Edinburgh?
Regards,
DFC
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To be honest Timothy, I am amazed at how anti NATS route charges this has become (nowt to do with me guv!)
At the end of the day, you are an ex professional pilot, who displays expectionally good airmanship and ability. I am guessing here but you must spend a few £ keeping your IFR equipped twin and IFR rating current - not too mention lots of £ on a business trip from BIG-EDI. Why not use it!!
What's a few extra £ for an IFR departure, guaranteed radar service, a radar handover, and peace of mind.
I don't wish to harp on about push-on-itis and CFIT but there are loads of reports of low and high houred pilots getting it wrong - and keeping AAIB busy.
It's only money fella!!!
At the end of the day, you are an ex professional pilot, who displays expectionally good airmanship and ability. I am guessing here but you must spend a few £ keeping your IFR equipped twin and IFR rating current - not too mention lots of £ on a business trip from BIG-EDI. Why not use it!!
What's a few extra £ for an IFR departure, guaranteed radar service, a radar handover, and peace of mind.
I don't wish to harp on about push-on-itis and CFIT but there are loads of reports of low and high houred pilots getting it wrong - and keeping AAIB busy.
It's only money fella!!!
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AlanM
How about because it's not guaranteed?
Let's move the scenario away from Biggin Hill. How about (as we need a controlled airport for the question to arise) Plymouth to Prestwick - on a weekend.
Get airborne from Plymouth. Non-radar airfield, no nearby radar unit. The weather scenario involved means an IFR departure would not benefit the aircraft at all (REMEMBER - this was the original question - NOT whether it was legal). Heading north. The next available ATC unit (I'm not including London info here because they can't separate, therefore they don't come into the IFR v VFR equation) would be Ronaldsway (non-NATS) and the next after that Prestwick (non-NATS).
DFC
And the above route, with the levels involved, rather negates everything you've suggested.
So - just because we put 'I' instead of 'V' on the flight plan we've paid £80 to NATS via Eurocontrol - and what have we got for it?
This was the whole point of Timothy's original question for those that haven't quite grasped it yet!
What's a few extra £ for an IFR departure, guaranteed radar service, a radar handover, and peace of mind.
Let's move the scenario away from Biggin Hill. How about (as we need a controlled airport for the question to arise) Plymouth to Prestwick - on a weekend.
Get airborne from Plymouth. Non-radar airfield, no nearby radar unit. The weather scenario involved means an IFR departure would not benefit the aircraft at all (REMEMBER - this was the original question - NOT whether it was legal). Heading north. The next available ATC unit (I'm not including London info here because they can't separate, therefore they don't come into the IFR v VFR equation) would be Ronaldsway (non-NATS) and the next after that Prestwick (non-NATS).
DFC
Having decided to pay Nav charges why not make the best use of the expense and make use of the services provided in return for payment of those charges - London FIS, Scottish FIS, Volmet, VOR/DME navaids are available at all times.
So - just because we put 'I' instead of 'V' on the flight plan we've paid £80 to NATS via Eurocontrol - and what have we got for it?
This was the whole point of Timothy's original question for those that haven't quite grasped it yet!
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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I think that this is penny pinching to be honnest. How much does it cost to fly the aircraft to and from Edinburgh?
On the question of going airways if you are paying EC, yes in principal, but I then have to fly further, am subject to slot delays and have less flexibility in weather avoidance.
Quick straw poll. Does anyone here pay EC (themselves) and advocate paying them?
'just another atco'
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One advantage of departing IFR (although it really depends how 'public spirited' you are as to whether you view it as such) is that you do your small part towards funding the LARS service which, as you state, you will take advantage of whether VFR or IFR. At least you are contributing to a service that you may be able to take advantage of. I would suggest it is more appropriate for you to assist with it's funding than British Airways who rarely, if ever, use the service yet, under the present funding formula, end up footing the majority of the bill.
Perhaps, the LARS service itself would be more comprehensive if the charges were set at a realistic level and directed at all those who wish to take advantage of the service or would all those recipients be as reluctant to pay as you?
I find a degree of irony in the fact that you are complaining about the charge yet you are one of the few people who, in the case of LARS, is actually paying for a service that you use!
Perhaps, the LARS service itself would be more comprehensive if the charges were set at a realistic level and directed at all those who wish to take advantage of the service or would all those recipients be as reluctant to pay as you?
I find a degree of irony in the fact that you are complaining about the charge yet you are one of the few people who, in the case of LARS, is actually paying for a service that you use!
aceatco, retired
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On the question of going airways if you are paying EC, yes in principal, but I then have to fly further, am subject to slot delays and have less flexibility in weather avoidance.
What is the point?
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Chilli Monster
I hear what you are saying, and obviously I cannot speak for Plymouth, but Timothy's home base is Biggin Hill.
An IFR departure outside CAS from BIG IS guaranteed a radar service. We have no option - it is part of the service provision between Biggin and NATS. It is in our MATS pt 2 and if we are unable to provide a radar service (due workload etc) we must inform the pilot BEFORE departure so he may delay/accept a FIS/FAS!! (Does Luton HAVE to provide a radar service to Elstree IFR departures joining airways??) I am sure the same is true for places ATSU's outside CAS with radar.
Anyway - it's all swings and roundabouts - you don't pay for the service of pleasure flying in the London Zones and getting a RIS with Thames when you depart VFR! Surely it all evens itself out.
We are not a something-for-nothing provider any more. We (NATS) are in the harsh commercial world now matey.
Oh god - this has changed to a route charges topic. Something I have NO knowledge or interest in!!! EJECT!
I hear what you are saying, and obviously I cannot speak for Plymouth, but Timothy's home base is Biggin Hill.
An IFR departure outside CAS from BIG IS guaranteed a radar service. We have no option - it is part of the service provision between Biggin and NATS. It is in our MATS pt 2 and if we are unable to provide a radar service (due workload etc) we must inform the pilot BEFORE departure so he may delay/accept a FIS/FAS!! (Does Luton HAVE to provide a radar service to Elstree IFR departures joining airways??) I am sure the same is true for places ATSU's outside CAS with radar.
Anyway - it's all swings and roundabouts - you don't pay for the service of pleasure flying in the London Zones and getting a RIS with Thames when you depart VFR! Surely it all evens itself out.
We are not a something-for-nothing provider any more. We (NATS) are in the harsh commercial world now matey.
Oh god - this has changed to a route charges topic. Something I have NO knowledge or interest in!!! EJECT!
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We are not a something-for-nothing provider any more.
)I think the problem is you're not expanding your mind to the problem. Stop thinking provincially and think outside the 'Biggin / Thames' box.
Once you get outside of your part of the world, at weekends - there's Jack S**t in terms of service provision over a vast amount of the country - yet once that 'I' goes on the flight plan you get screwed for nothing.
Put it another way. You go to a restaurant, you order a meal. You get an aperitif, but nothing else. Two hours later you're given a bill for all three courses, drinks and coffee which you're then expected to pay before you leave.
How would you feel?
Perhaps, the LARS service itself would be more comprehensive if the charges were set at a realistic level and directed at all those who wish to take advantage of the service or would all those recipients be as reluctant to pay as you?
If you're going to charge then place a levy on everyone and provide a service everywhere. If you can't provide everywhere then either a) don't provide at all or b) leave it up to individual units whether they participate in some form of service, with no LARS funding.
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 5th Jun 2004 at 17:19.
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OK - lets talk about this other world outside my box!!
So if you file IFR you have to pay for an IFR service if you stay outside CAS irrespective as to whether or not you get a radar/any service?
And anyway.....
That is a great description of where we are with the airlines and LARS. They help fund it so what do they get in return?
I agree with VA here.... I am not sure what the point of this thread is!
So if you file IFR you have to pay for an IFR service if you stay outside CAS irrespective as to whether or not you get a radar/any service?
And anyway.....
Put it another way. You go to a restaurant, you order a meal. You get an aperitif, but nothing else. Two hours later you're given a bill for all three courses, drinks and coffee which you're then expected to pay before you leave.
I agree with VA here.... I am not sure what the point of this thread is!
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Timothy is complaining about having to pay nav charges because he puts I in the flight plan when flying non-airways from Biggin to Edinburgh while the only bit of IMC flying will be done during the first minute.
Why on earth is this guy filing a flight plan? - none of the LARS units and the London FIR person will not get a copy (unlesss he addresses it directly and then they will probably ignore it).
Book out from Biggin IFR. Talk to whoever one likes enroute just like any other VFR flight and make a VFR clearance request to Edinburgh. If the fog is only 500ft deep there will be no need for a radar service from Thames.
Thus - no flight plan - no enroute nav charges. and a legal flight to boot.
---
Chilli,
How does the pilot find his way legally from Plymouth to Prestwick? The Volmet is available on the ground in Prestwick so no doubt it is available mush further away as 5000ft plus!
Regards,
DFC
Why on earth is this guy filing a flight plan? - none of the LARS units and the London FIR person will not get a copy (unlesss he addresses it directly and then they will probably ignore it).
Book out from Biggin IFR. Talk to whoever one likes enroute just like any other VFR flight and make a VFR clearance request to Edinburgh. If the fog is only 500ft deep there will be no need for a radar service from Thames.
Thus - no flight plan - no enroute nav charges. and a legal flight to boot.
---
Chilli,
How does the pilot find his way legally from Plymouth to Prestwick? The Volmet is available on the ground in Prestwick so no doubt it is available mush further away as 5000ft plus!
Regards,
DFC
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Why on earth is this guy filing a flight plan? - none of the LARS units and the London FIR person will not get a copy (unlesss he addresses it directly and then they will probably ignore it).
Book out from Biggin IFR.
Book out from Biggin IFR.
. It's not just on the basis of the submission of the flight plan. Aerodromes are also required to submit copies of logs with whether aircraft departed IFR or VFR. On the basis of these route charges are incurred.
How does the pilot find his way legally from Plymouth to Prestwick? The Volmet is available on the ground in Prestwick so no doubt it is available mush further away as 5000ft plus!