Manchester Approach and 'unclear' radio reception

[Pole Hill]

First time posting in the lions den

I was talking to Manchester Approach freq 119.525MHz on Saturday evening, and I had a little problem understanding what the controller was saying, he sounded very unclear, more 'muffled' than normal. I have experienced this sometimes before.

I want to address this problem to avoid asking the controller to say again, because I don't want to annoy the controller by holding up busy frequecies with requests for repetitions. Additionally, it makes me sound unprofessional; with the possible consequence that I won't get any help, because I sound like I don't know what I am doing.

What would be a polite way to ask the controller to speak more clearly? I resisted doing so out of respect, but at the same time I found it difficult to understand his transmissions. I subsequently talked to Leeds, and had no problem, so I'm sure that rules out the radio.

Any feedback appreciated,
Thank you,
POL.

[norvenmunky]

He was probably still wearin his parka, to protect him from the sunshiiiiiieeeeene. Know what a mean.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I don't know anything about Manch (I was born there and vowed never to return!!). However.. at West Drayton (and most other large units) controllers have the facility to link two or more frequencies during quiet periods. It's called "bandboxing". In my experience this can cause transmissions to sound slightly muffled. Another likely possibility is that he was using a handset rather than a headset. When traffic is quiet some ATCOs take their headsets off and use a thing that looks like a telephone handset. If ONLY they knew how utterly dreadful they sounded they probably wouldn't do it.

Be honest - tell the guy is is difficult to read.. If it's not down to obvious problems he should report it and get it checked out.

[1261]

The best thing to do is call the tower supervisor when you land (I know that there's often not time to do this!). The number is in the AIP (my boss won't thank me for posting it here!); he's/she's in the best position to check things out.

[Pole Hill]

HEATHROW DIRECTOR,
Some interesting points there. In hindsight, I should have just told the controller that he was readability 3. Then at least he could have made any adjustments possible, which may have cleared things up.
Are there any Manchester controllers that visit this forum? Or any Leeds controllers? Just wondering.

1261,
I'll bear that one in mind
Thanks
POL.

[Spiney Norman]

Yes there are Manchester ATCO's. This one was working Saturday evening on 119.525 along with two other guys. We had no reports of any problems with 119.525 all day. Just speaking with my pilot hat on. I've known plenty of occasions when I've had poor RTF quality on one frequency and then crystal clear on others. As Leeds is on 123.75 but we're using a 25kc spacing there might still be a problem with your radio. Asking us to speak more clearly is a bit of a strange request! I think if you'd just said I'm recieving you strength 3, or whatever, it would have certainly made me ask another aircraft on frequency to report on the quality of reception. The response would have answered your question. We don't bandbox, or use any cross-coupling on 119.525 but we do on the TWR/GMC/GMP frequencies.

Spiney

[ILS 119.5]

Just ask the controller to say again and advise the quality of the transmission. The problem will then be addressed by the apprpriate engineering dept. It is up to all parties involved if they suspect a problem and to resolve it ASAP in the interests of aviation safety. On the other hand the ATCO concerned may have been choking on a pizza or feeling the heat from a vindaloo.

ILS 119.5

[mainecoon]

not in our ops room ils

we have a top rottie who would have your guts for!! etc etc

[055166k]

Pole Hill

Never be embarrassed about having to ask for a "say again". Remember that on the ground we have millions of pounds worth of equipment and people, and out there somewhere are all our customers; our only link is the spoken word via a fairly crappy £10 headset which is expected to last for life without replacement or maintenance of any kind. There are also notorious areas of R/T interference [ e.g. EXMOR area on 126.07 for the last 20 years] as well as the odd blind-spot. Anyway.....please say if you can't hear us.....there may be an alternate frequency available......at the very least the controller will be aware of the problem . There are many ways round this, even a message relay via another a/c if a slow, careful and clear transmission technique doesn't work.

[Pole Hill]

Spiney Norman,

As Leeds is on 123.75 but we're using a 25kc spacing there might still be a problem with your radio.

I don't understand what you mean; Leeds is using 25KHz spacing, aren't they?

Asking us to speak more clearly is a bit of a strange request!

That's why I was reluctant to say anything.

I think if you'd just said I'm recieving you strength 3, or whatever, it would have certainly made me ask another aircraft on frequency to report on the quality of reception.

Ok, next time I'll do that.

Thanks.



055166k and ILS 119.5,
Your feedback is reassuring, thank you.
POL

[Spiney Norman]

Pole Hill.
I'm no avionics engineer but I have known light aircraft radios to have markedly different reception characteristics between a 50kc spacing, (a frequency ending in, say, 123.750), to a freq like 119.525 or 118.625 which may sound c**p! Particularly the older Narco models in some Cessna's. I guess it's something to do with wether the radio tunes to those frequencies 'spot on'. As 055166k says, we're using a radio and a 'lovely' Radio Shack quality headset so between us speaking in our BBC announcer like voices, and the message getting to you, the words go through alot of wires! As has been said, there is no problem with you asking us to 'say again'. I'm just wondering if you were speaking to my colleague from Belfast who had a cold! Mainecoon is right by the way, no eating or drinking in the Ops room or the 'Tea Police' 'll get ya, and it's up to the Headmasters study with a book down your kecks!! I always tell him 'a bigger boy made me do it', but it never does any good.

Spiney
P.S. You weren't near Winter Hill were you? I haven't known R/T degredation in that area, but it plays havoc with GPS for about a 15nm radius! God knows what it does to the 'family jewels'!

[Squadgy]

Hi,

We have just taken our Narco 810 out of our Cessna and replaced it on a temporary basis with a Narco 120 having suffered from distosion problems - we suspect the reason is that the digital tuning on the 810 was too 'exact' - often ATSUs may transmit slightly off the published frequency. The analogue tuner on the 120 seems to have got around this and we now have crystal clear R/T at all times

[Spiney Norman]

There you go! The Barton GA experts have spoken!

Spiney
P.S. Pole Hill. I suspect you thought I was being short with you, which couldn't be further from the truth! My comment about being asked to speak more clearly being strange was because we can't really be any more clear than the RT we're using. We can do slowly though and that might have helped. If you're ever in doubt never be afraid to ask us to 'say again'.

[FlightDetent]

Geez, gentlemen. Such an argument I shall elect not to work the radios inbound tonight. Anyway, good morning tomorrow!

[Spiney Norman]

FD.
Depending on what time the Prague gets back I'll say hello! Don't ask me to adjust the cats whisker though!

Spiney

Actually, forget that about Prague!!! Here\'s a lesson, don\'t book tickets and talk on Pprune at the same time!!!

[Pole Hill]

Spiney Norman,
I was 28DME ish from POL direct on track 310, the time was about 19:20 local.

I'm no avionics engineer but I have known light aircraft radios to have markedly different reception characteristics between a 50kc spacing

Next time I'm up there, I'll try to use frequencies with 25KHz and 50KHz space, and see if it makes any difference.

Pole Hill. I suspect you thought I was being short with you,.....If you're ever in doubt never be afraid to ask us to 'say again'.

Well, to be honest, I thought you were a bit; but now I know you weren't being now! I'll definately ask to SAY AGAIN if required. Thank you.

Squadgy,
Interesting. The transceiver that I was using is digital, and I'm sure it's Narco. The backup is analogue, so I may try using that next time.

Thanks,
POL

[cossack]

I was 28DME ish from POL direct on track 310, the time was about 19:20 local.

What altitude were you at?

There's a lot of high ground between where you were and MAN, so if you were below about 2500-3000 feet, the high ground may have been a contributing factor. No high ground between you and Leeds though, and they're on top of a hill!!!!

[Squadgy]

POL,

Just to clarify, were you on the 310 radial from POL at 28DME, or heading 310 somewhere 28DME from the beacon?

[Spiney Norman]

I must admit. I interpreted Pole Hill's comment on the R/T as meaning the signal wasn't broken but just poor quality. Terrain shielding normally results in broken transmissions but doesn't affect the signal clarity, if you see what I mean! The only area we've had known problems was, suprisingly, 10nm inbound MIRSI FL60 and above! That's sorted now by an aerial move.

Spiney
Cossack...Still enjoying the new world? There are a few more people you'll remember on the way!

[Pole Hill]

All,
I was tracking direct to POL, on track 310 (or radial 130), at 28 DME. I was at 3400ft on QNH. The issue was with poor signal quality (readability 3).
Again, thanks for all your input.
POL