Speed Control
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Imposition of Speed Control
I think controllers need a greater awareness of individual aircraft operating characteristics before being given the draconian power to impose speed control. I know that many modern "scopes" look like a video computer game with lots of toys, and an unfortunate side-effect is a kind of detachment from reality with the real world. We really do need a proper FAM-flight scheme to cover this. There is no shortage of money in NATS for endless management courses, I only wish there could be quarter as much effort spent on service delivery knowledge for the shop-floor controller. What few by-the-back-door flights that are available are unofficial.....and we have to pay our own way on our days off.
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The FAM program presented the best opportunity for controllers and pilots to discuss operational characteristics which in turn helped us to be better controllers. Regretfully we have numerous young controllers who have never been in the cockpit of an air carrier. We need this valuable learning tool back!
As for speed reductions I hate it when I instruct a pilot to reduce to 210 to help maintain my sequence and they neglect to pull the speed back, this only makes our job more difficult.
Mike
NATCA FWA
As for speed reductions I hate it when I instruct a pilot to reduce to 210 to help maintain my sequence and they neglect to pull the speed back, this only makes our job more difficult.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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Thats something I don't understand. Why did FAM flights stop all around the world when in reality what threat is a properly credentialled security checked Air Traffic Controller going to pose. I agree with all above it was a valuable tool in understanding the other guys job a little better, and most importantly when a pilot may be busy or quiet. It also broke down a little of the animosity between pilots and controllers that sometimes builds up.
Why is it that airlines don't make it policy that for even a couple of hours each year, all pilots must sit with a controller at the radar and maybe understand the pressures we are under. It could only help everyone involved. In the almost 10 years as a controller I have seen a handful of pilots visit, and usually whisked through by a manager on the propoganda tour and then off for tea and sandwiches, never actually stopping with us as the coal face for a while. Just an idea.
Why is it that airlines don't make it policy that for even a couple of hours each year, all pilots must sit with a controller at the radar and maybe understand the pressures we are under. It could only help everyone involved. In the almost 10 years as a controller I have seen a handful of pilots visit, and usually whisked through by a manager on the propoganda tour and then off for tea and sandwiches, never actually stopping with us as the coal face for a while. Just an idea.
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Front end here !
We participate in Fam flights, bit of a hiccough recently but they are back again. Visited ATC at Wy Aye International since I'm up here for the summer. Trying to get them up with us and they can see for themselves why we despair when other operators either slow down in front of us, or apparently don't stick to their assigned speeds.
Last year going into MAN we were following a light blue charter operator who was on an assigned 290 knots. We were on 280 and doing it, yet mysteriously catching them up at an alarming rate !.
Nowadays, if I am 30 miles behind either them or our orange cousins at say 30,000', I find myself asking if they want me to slow down because I know I will catch them up with no speed busts anywhere.
We participate in Fam flights, bit of a hiccough recently but they are back again. Visited ATC at Wy Aye International since I'm up here for the summer. Trying to get them up with us and they can see for themselves why we despair when other operators either slow down in front of us, or apparently don't stick to their assigned speeds.
Last year going into MAN we were following a light blue charter operator who was on an assigned 290 knots. We were on 280 and doing it, yet mysteriously catching them up at an alarming rate !.
Nowadays, if I am 30 miles behind either them or our orange cousins at say 30,000', I find myself asking if they want me to slow down because I know I will catch them up with no speed busts anywhere.
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Going off the speed control rail slightly but a response to the question on CTOT's
-5 / +10 is the slot tolerance
There are local agreements that allow extensions to be sought etc etc - this is at ATC disgression.
I certainly know that at quieter tower units, sometimes a call to FMP can be made to see if they are able to help out - No promises but 'here to serve!!'
Turn It Off
-5 / +10 is the slot tolerance
There are local agreements that allow extensions to be sought etc etc - this is at ATC disgression.
I certainly know that at quieter tower units, sometimes a call to FMP can be made to see if they are able to help out - No promises but 'here to serve!!'
Turn It Off
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TIO - confusion now reigns again! Are you saying that WE (pilots) can EXPECT to exercise this -5/+10 as we used to or is this an ATC 'discretion' as I understood it now to be?
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As far as i am aware Ctot -5 +10 is standard across the board. Its an 'airbourne window' for want of a better expression.
I would say that yes a pilot can work on the basis of that window.
Bear in kind however it is an airborne time - if there are ten aircraft in front of you in the departure sequence, and you call on frequency with only 5 minutes remaining in the 'window' chances are you will be told not to start as you are outside the window, it would simply not be possible to get you away in that sort of gap.
You do not have to be airborne on the CTOT but within -5 +10 minutes is standard practice ( any deviation from this requires telephone calls which in busy periods just are not possible to make) - I would be very dubious if anyone told u that did not apply.
Have i just opened myself up to a world of criticism?? ( I am talking IRO of UK airports)
I would say that yes a pilot can work on the basis of that window.
Bear in kind however it is an airborne time - if there are ten aircraft in front of you in the departure sequence, and you call on frequency with only 5 minutes remaining in the 'window' chances are you will be told not to start as you are outside the window, it would simply not be possible to get you away in that sort of gap.
You do not have to be airborne on the CTOT but within -5 +10 minutes is standard practice ( any deviation from this requires telephone calls which in busy periods just are not possible to make) - I would be very dubious if anyone told u that did not apply.
Have i just opened myself up to a world of criticism?? ( I am talking IRO of UK airports)
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Pilots are required by the Rules of the Air (ICAO) to inform Air Traffic if the average true airspeed at cruising level varies by +/- 5% of the filed TAS.
That is the only place where a tolerence is given.
However, having been instructed to fly at say 220Kt by ATC, there are some factors that may result in some small variations from that speed;
1. To obtain an IR a pilot does not have to maintain the exact speed and there is an allowance either side of the assigned figure wich depends on things such as turbulence. Some do better than others but all are IR rated (autopilots are sometimes better).
2. The pilot will fly indicated airspeed. Every airspeed system will have some form of position error detailed in the flight manual. This position error depends on type of design and configuration at that time. Thus put two aircraft of the same type in the same place at the same IAS but in a different configuration and they may have slightly different TAS (and thus GS). Also two types in the exact same place in space flying the same IAS can have different TAS doe to the different design and position error.
However, taking the above into account, I would expect that in smooth flying conditions, the speeds should be within 20 Kt of each other (1 10 Kt fast, the other 10 Kt slow).
Regards,
DFC
That is the only place where a tolerence is given.
However, having been instructed to fly at say 220Kt by ATC, there are some factors that may result in some small variations from that speed;
1. To obtain an IR a pilot does not have to maintain the exact speed and there is an allowance either side of the assigned figure wich depends on things such as turbulence. Some do better than others but all are IR rated (autopilots are sometimes better).
2. The pilot will fly indicated airspeed. Every airspeed system will have some form of position error detailed in the flight manual. This position error depends on type of design and configuration at that time. Thus put two aircraft of the same type in the same place at the same IAS but in a different configuration and they may have slightly different TAS (and thus GS). Also two types in the exact same place in space flying the same IAS can have different TAS doe to the different design and position error.
However, taking the above into account, I would expect that in smooth flying conditions, the speeds should be within 20 Kt of each other (1 10 Kt fast, the other 10 Kt slow).
Regards,
DFC
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Thanks, TIO - that is certainly how I 'used' to understand it but word has reached me that the -5/+10 is only available now 'at the discretion of ATC' eg if I call for start at CTOT-5 (with no a/c ahead) I MAY be refused unless ATC allow the 'delay' (which falls within their 'airfield tolerance' from CFMU)?
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BOAC
Pilots still have to aim for their CTOT, which will be advised by company or handling agents. ATC at the airfield have the leeway to let the aircraft depart -5 to +10 on their issued CTOT.
They will take this in to account when letting you start and/or clear you for taxying.
Each airfield has a declared taxy time (10 mins seems to be standard except at busier or bigger airfields), and so if you call for start with less than that time parameter till your CTOT, then ATC may refuse you start clearance and ask you to get the company to file a delay (DLA) message. Then it's to the back of the queue by Brussels alas
As a basic rule, pilots need to calculate leaving the stand and building in the average taxy time to the runway in use in order to make the CTOT issued by Brussels. ATC have a little leeway to allow for the miscalculations which inevitably occur.
All I would say is that if you are late on your slot and flying from a UK airfield to an airfield outside the UK and have a CTOT and miss it, then the UK can't do a lot to help you. You may possibly go the back of the queue and incur a big delay. C'est la vie ..... and rightly so.
For internal UK flights subject to UK Regulations, we can work a little magic for anyone not taking the piss
Pilots still have to aim for their CTOT, which will be advised by company or handling agents. ATC at the airfield have the leeway to let the aircraft depart -5 to +10 on their issued CTOT.
They will take this in to account when letting you start and/or clear you for taxying.
Each airfield has a declared taxy time (10 mins seems to be standard except at busier or bigger airfields), and so if you call for start with less than that time parameter till your CTOT, then ATC may refuse you start clearance and ask you to get the company to file a delay (DLA) message. Then it's to the back of the queue by Brussels alas
As a basic rule, pilots need to calculate leaving the stand and building in the average taxy time to the runway in use in order to make the CTOT issued by Brussels. ATC have a little leeway to allow for the miscalculations which inevitably occur.
All I would say is that if you are late on your slot and flying from a UK airfield to an airfield outside the UK and have a CTOT and miss it, then the UK can't do a lot to help you. You may possibly go the back of the queue and incur a big delay. C'est la vie ..... and rightly so.
For internal UK flights subject to UK Regulations, we can work a little magic for anyone not taking the piss
Only half a speed-brake
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Thanks PPR - it is as I understood it then - it was the hint that it might still be there to be 'assumed' by us drivers that confused me.
Fd - thanks, but 'beyond my Ken'
Fd - thanks, but 'beyond my Ken'
Only half a speed-brake
Ahaa, turning into the language corner! 
praising Google...
Anyhow the intresting paragraphs are short and just a few. Rest should probably never reach the cockpit:
4.3 Slot Adherence
5.1.14 EOBT Requirements
5.2.3.11 Ready (REA) Message
So long,
FD.
praising Google...Anyhow the intresting paragraphs are short and just a few. Rest should probably never reach the cockpit:
4.3 Slot Adherence
5.1.14 EOBT Requirements
5.2.3.11 Ready (REA) Message
So long,
FD.
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Speed reduction at 1kt/sec
GWH, I have received no answers yet.
BUT, we used to instruct this in the sim and it was written in our OM-A. I guess they took it out.
But it makes sense to me.
BUT, we used to instruct this in the sim and it was written in our OM-A. I guess they took it out.
But it makes sense to me.
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::: Found it :::
Finally I found it black on white while doing a revision.
We don't use Jeppesen, but under the NAV section and where they talk about ROC/ROD, they also mention speed reduction of 1kt/sec.
This is not a company specific item, but a general one.
We don't use Jeppesen, but under the NAV section and where they talk about ROC/ROD, they also mention speed reduction of 1kt/sec.
This is not a company specific item, but a general one.
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Frankly, regardless of Jepps/MATS/AIP, this should be treated in exactly the same way as all other instructions, i.e. if you can't comply, at least have the decency to let us know. Saves everyone a lot of sphincter tightening (and maybe just a few go-arounds)
