phraseology
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phraseology
hello,
In the UK the phrase: " ...own navigation to..." is often used in stead of "direct to..."
About 20 years ago in Italy I interpreted this phrase as a direct to...and got reprimanded shortly after setting course. The controller told me that "own navigation " means follow the flightplan route. What is your opinion? Has the phraseology changed? Or do ATC rules differ somewhat depending the country. Thanks for clarifying.
In the UK the phrase: " ...own navigation to..." is often used in stead of "direct to..."
About 20 years ago in Italy I interpreted this phrase as a direct to...and got reprimanded shortly after setting course. The controller told me that "own navigation " means follow the flightplan route. What is your opinion? Has the phraseology changed? Or do ATC rules differ somewhat depending the country. Thanks for clarifying.
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In the UK you'll be given "Own navigation to.............(point on your flight plan). The understanding is that you'll route direct to that point, and pick up your flight plan. Normally given after extended vectoring.
If the chap in Italy gave you "own navigation....(point at end of the flight plan) then it's his own fault for using phraseology which was ambiguous. If in doubt what he could / should have said "Route direct....(posn).......then flight plan route" (or similar).
If the chap in Italy gave you "own navigation....(point at end of the flight plan) then it's his own fault for using phraseology which was ambiguous. If in doubt what he could / should have said "Route direct....(posn).......then flight plan route" (or similar).
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In Australia, it is the same, after extensive vectoring, it is common to use the phrase "resume own navigation" but that will always be accompanied by another instruction pointing out exactly where you want the aircraft to go. eg. ABC track direct CANTY and resume own navigation. Its a bit of a leftover from the old days when the pilot was relying on NDB's and VOR's for navigation, and was telling him that you were passing back responsibility for navigation back to him. These days with everyone on RNAV, even when on a vector, pilots know exactly where they are (well usually!!)
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ANSA; 'resume own nav' was to hand responsibility for terrain clearance back to the pilot.
In the absence of a specific tracking instruction, how can you get upset at whatever the pilot decides to do?
In the absence of a specific tracking instruction, how can you get upset at whatever the pilot decides to do?
Pardoned PPRuNer
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Is there another Australia....
In Australia, it is the same, after extensive vectoring
Or do you mean it took you several goes to get it right?
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Come now TT; I remember looking across the room at you working Sector 2, with your ring hanging out...
Needless to say you couldn't care less about the north bound rocket router... "Call me back"...
Needless to say you couldn't care less about the north bound rocket router... "Call me back"...
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In the US, it means the same thing, but we will normally give you a heading to rejoin the airway/jetway, or to your next fix and say resume own navigation..
Mike
NATCA FWA
Mike
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Personally, I would not clear a pilot on his/her own navigation until I had sufficient knowledge of their requested/filed route and the traffic situation so that embarassement wou8ld not ne caused to either pilot or me.
It's a little factor called planning!
It's a little factor called planning!
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"Resume Own Navigation" means exactly what it says. The controller was vectoring the aircraft and therefore had responsibility for the aircraft track (including terrain clearance). That responsibilty is being handed back to the pilot.
If an aircraft is off track at this point, the pilot needs more information/instruction to be able to comply.
In NZ, he should either be told "INTERCEPT TRACK" or "DIRECT TO...".
Incidentally, "Direct To" means just that. Sometimes we are asked "is that from our present position?" The question is can you think of any other point in space to start from?
As far as terrain clearance goes, the Radar Controller is still responsible for terrain clearance until the aircraft is re-established on a published track or procedure. Mind you, if you have any doubts about terrain, feel free to ask for confirmation.
If an aircraft is off track at this point, the pilot needs more information/instruction to be able to comply.
In NZ, he should either be told "INTERCEPT TRACK" or "DIRECT TO...".
Incidentally, "Direct To" means just that. Sometimes we are asked "is that from our present position?" The question is can you think of any other point in space to start from?
As far as terrain clearance goes, the Radar Controller is still responsible for terrain clearance until the aircraft is re-established on a published track or procedure. Mind you, if you have any doubts about terrain, feel free to ask for confirmation.
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Yeh, point taken Ferris. But since the airspace I was generally vectoring aircraft in (thats that one vector I did every 3 weeks!!) had a base of FL200, terrain clearance was never a great concern to be honest.
YDFD, yeh I've thought that as well. "ABC track direct SHJ, resume own navigation", "Confirm that is direct from present position?", "No, I would like you to track direct from the postion you were 5 minutes ago????"
Off the topic, but a pet hate of mine here, especially with the Indian pilots, is everything they readback is finished with a "confirm?". Now my understanding is that by reading back the clearance/requirement/instruction, unless I correct them in any way that is confirming that the readback is correct. Ok every now and then when their is real confusion, but every single instruction they get.."confirm???" Arrgggghhh.
YDFD, yeh I've thought that as well. "ABC track direct SHJ, resume own navigation", "Confirm that is direct from present position?", "No, I would like you to track direct from the postion you were 5 minutes ago????"
Off the topic, but a pet hate of mine here, especially with the Indian pilots, is everything they readback is finished with a "confirm?". Now my understanding is that by reading back the clearance/requirement/instruction, unless I correct them in any way that is confirming that the readback is correct. Ok every now and then when their is real confusion, but every single instruction they get.."confirm???" Arrgggghhh.
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"Confirm" Translates from Hindi to "You cricket loser..."
Every 3 weeks on CANTY is EXTENSIVE...
Back to the original post instead of picking on Airey, I would agree the ATC was not effectively communicating. Have you noticed that those who make minimal efforts to communicate their intentions make the most noise when they are missunderstood?
Every 3 weeks on CANTY is EXTENSIVE...
Back to the original post instead of picking on Airey, I would agree the ATC was not effectively communicating. Have you noticed that those who make minimal efforts to communicate their intentions make the most noise when they are missunderstood?
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Well, in Spain it means the same.
The thing would be, after vectoring a traffic: "BALXXX now clear of (traffic) resume own navigation direct to XXX"
Anyway i dont usually say that, but just: proceed direct to XXX.
It is the same.
Best.
The thing would be, after vectoring a traffic: "BALXXX now clear of (traffic) resume own navigation direct to XXX"
Anyway i dont usually say that, but just: proceed direct to XXX.
It is the same.
Best.
