Call for Italian Controller to be jailed !!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Call for Italian Controller to be jailed !!
BBC News Report
Calls for the head of Italian air traffic and the "on duty controller" to be given long prison sentences over the SAS crash at Milan in 2001.....
Calls for the head of Italian air traffic and the "on duty controller" to be given long prison sentences over the SAS crash at Milan in 2001.....
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: South of the River
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know if it was acurate, but the reconstruction I saw on television showed the Pilot holding short of the runway and querying with ATC whether he should proceed more than once.
He even told the Contoller which holding point he was at, and was still told to proceed.
As I said, I don't know if the reconstruction was completely acurate, but it seemed well researched.
As with everything in life, it is rarely one event that causes a tragedy, more usually it is a chain of events.
He even told the Contoller which holding point he was at, and was still told to proceed.
As I said, I don't know if the reconstruction was completely acurate, but it seemed well researched.
As with everything in life, it is rarely one event that causes a tragedy, more usually it is a chain of events.
Pegase Driver
There is discussion on this on Rumours and news.
I objected strongly there on the BBC news about the fact that they found it necessary to mention the name of the controller on duty and , a sentence further, the “killing “of 118 pax…. I found this totally irreseponsible from serious journalists.
We are repeating the Ueberlingen mistakes again and again…
This is ( parly ) what I also posted in Rumours and news :
The whole Airport structure and safety system failed in Linate.
The controllers gave clear taxi clearances but accepted very poor read backs. The ground signs were inappropriate and some apparently unknown to the ATC staff on duty. It took 30 minutes for the fire rescue to find the Citation hull despite a functioning ELB that could not be heard in the TWR.
These are points that will need very serious review.
The airport had no functioning safety management system in place, and this is seen by the investigators as the main contributing factor.. The report place great emphasis in non-punitive incident reporting to learned from past errors as a basis to improve Safety. .
Sending them to jail will certainly improve the reporting in the future!
I hate to think what they would have done with the Citation pilots if they would have survived the crash...
The final report can be read here :
http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/news...1-04Linate.pdf
I objected strongly there on the BBC news about the fact that they found it necessary to mention the name of the controller on duty and , a sentence further, the “killing “of 118 pax…. I found this totally irreseponsible from serious journalists.
We are repeating the Ueberlingen mistakes again and again…
This is ( parly ) what I also posted in Rumours and news :
The whole Airport structure and safety system failed in Linate.
The controllers gave clear taxi clearances but accepted very poor read backs. The ground signs were inappropriate and some apparently unknown to the ATC staff on duty. It took 30 minutes for the fire rescue to find the Citation hull despite a functioning ELB that could not be heard in the TWR.
These are points that will need very serious review.
The airport had no functioning safety management system in place, and this is seen by the investigators as the main contributing factor.. The report place great emphasis in non-punitive incident reporting to learned from past errors as a basis to improve Safety. .
Sending them to jail will certainly improve the reporting in the future!
I hate to think what they would have done with the Citation pilots if they would have survived the crash...
The final report can be read here :
http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/news...1-04Linate.pdf
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK guys, some links (all in English):
The Italian AAIB whose name is ANSV
http://www.ansv.it/
The link for the final ANSV's report
http://www.ansv.it/cgi-bin/eng/FINAL...T%20A-1-04.pdf
The link of victims' associations
http://www.comitato8ottobre.com/
The link of the technical enquire made on behalf of the judge
http://ww2.clickus.it/comitato8ottob...Dic%202003.doc
The Italian AAIB whose name is ANSV
http://www.ansv.it/
The link for the final ANSV's report
http://www.ansv.it/cgi-bin/eng/FINAL...T%20A-1-04.pdf
The link of victims' associations
http://www.comitato8ottobre.com/
The link of the technical enquire made on behalf of the judge
http://ww2.clickus.it/comitato8ottob...Dic%202003.doc
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Story in todays Sun (got to be true then) under banner headline "Outrage at jet horror tape"...
Story in todays Sun
Story in todays Sun
Pegase Driver
Yes this sentence is in the final report but you have to remember the following ( explained in the report )
Visibility was between 150 and 200m and collision occurred more than 2Km away . The citation was cleared via a taxi way taking it to the north of the runway ( away from it ) , and the pilot had confirmed that route. The SAS was on the TWR frequency and was supposed to take off and not call back within a minute or so. So there was no reason for the controller that made that remark to realise that there has been a crash and that the sound reported was indeed that of one.
Of course with the benefit of hinsight, it was an unfortunate joke. But only then.
In many Accidents reports such sentences are marked as "irrelevant "and not printed as they do contribute in any way to explain the accident and only upset the famillies of the victims.
I am surprised they aired that tape to the famillies... This is shocking indeed.
Visibility was between 150 and 200m and collision occurred more than 2Km away . The citation was cleared via a taxi way taking it to the north of the runway ( away from it ) , and the pilot had confirmed that route. The SAS was on the TWR frequency and was supposed to take off and not call back within a minute or so. So there was no reason for the controller that made that remark to realise that there has been a crash and that the sound reported was indeed that of one.
Of course with the benefit of hinsight, it was an unfortunate joke. But only then.
In many Accidents reports such sentences are marked as "irrelevant "and not printed as they do contribute in any way to explain the accident and only upset the famillies of the victims.
I am surprised they aired that tape to the famillies... This is shocking indeed.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's also remember the following ( in the report and annexes):
- there was no safety management system in Linate. This and other deficiencies brought the probability of catastrophic accident au to 10 minus 5 ( instead of less than 10 minus 9). In few word the "independent" Swedish audit concluded that each day was good to have a catastrophe. It was just for chance that SAS was involved.
- 2 ATCOs on duty had last training 20 years ago.
- The LoA would have requested to move not more 2 a/c per hour under such conditions.
- The SMR was not installed
- The local CAA did not inspect the flight before releasing it ( the GA pilot was without IFR licence)
- Firemen intervened 4-6 minutes after the event
- The surface signals was wrong.
- there was no safety management system in Linate. This and other deficiencies brought the probability of catastrophic accident au to 10 minus 5 ( instead of less than 10 minus 9). In few word the "independent" Swedish audit concluded that each day was good to have a catastrophe. It was just for chance that SAS was involved.
- 2 ATCOs on duty had last training 20 years ago.
- The LoA would have requested to move not more 2 a/c per hour under such conditions.
- The SMR was not installed
- The local CAA did not inspect the flight before releasing it ( the GA pilot was without IFR licence)
- Firemen intervened 4-6 minutes after the event
- The surface signals was wrong.
Pegase Driver
Moorsel where did you get that information about the GA pilot not having an IFR licence ? According my info both Citation pilots had one, the PIC had a IFR cat 1 with 5000 hours and 2400h on type, the co was ATPL FI , had 12.000h TT and 2000 h on type and an IFR CAT 1 as well.
What you probably refer to is the fact that they were not CAT3 qualified and that the Wx condition soutside were indeed CaT 3 but not reported as such by ATC.
But even then, according regulations nothing prevent you to taxi under CAT3 if you have a CAT 1 licence, because you can always wait for improvement at threshold and take off under improved visibility..as it comes.
So what they did was strictly speaking not illegal.
And again the airport at the time was not declared Cat 3 ops ( read the transcript of the ATIS at the time )
Like in any accident, the answers is a mixure of things and not a single person is responsible for everything.
What you probably refer to is the fact that they were not CAT3 qualified and that the Wx condition soutside were indeed CaT 3 but not reported as such by ATC.
But even then, according regulations nothing prevent you to taxi under CAT3 if you have a CAT 1 licence, because you can always wait for improvement at threshold and take off under improved visibility..as it comes.
So what they did was strictly speaking not illegal.
And again the airport at the time was not declared Cat 3 ops ( read the transcript of the ATIS at the time )
Like in any accident, the answers is a mixure of things and not a single person is responsible for everything.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Age: 55
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a few minutes ago the air traffic controller on duty was given an eight years sentence, much higher than his manager's.
When something goes wrong, who's the weakest link?
When something goes wrong, who's the weakest link?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: N 43° 39' 54'' E 7° 12' 53''
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another sad day for the ATC world after the Uberlingen affair. Here is an article about the verdict.
This whole affair is posing some really important questions about our job and the relations with the management...
Now the first thing to remember about this is that it could be anyone of us. To paraphrase the famous "ich bin ein Berliner ", what I would like to say is that " sono uno linatese"... or I'm from Linate... at least a try as my italian is limited to a very few words.
Siamo tutti con te Zacchetti !
This whole affair is posing some really important questions about our job and the relations with the management...
Now the first thing to remember about this is that it could be anyone of us. To paraphrase the famous "ich bin ein Berliner ", what I would like to say is that " sono uno linatese"... or I'm from Linate... at least a try as my italian is limited to a very few words.
Siamo tutti con te Zacchetti !
Last edited by Eva San; 22nd Apr 2004 at 20:42.
Pegase Driver
Absolutely shocking news ! Who will be next ! You are right Eva San.. looks like it is open season on the controlllers now...
can anyone (in Italy?) tell us if the sentences are firm or all or part are suspended ? ( normal in case no previous ofence )
Are the defendants going to appeal ? If yes ( as I suspect ) is the sentence suspended until then ?
can anyone (in Italy?) tell us if the sentences are firm or all or part are suspended ? ( normal in case no previous ofence )
Are the defendants going to appeal ? If yes ( as I suspect ) is the sentence suspended until then ?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: around
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
