Prospect ATCOs Pay ballot

[JuniorX]

I'm a little confused by what people are saying here. If the opposition to this pay deal is as great as is being made out by people, why was the vote not much closer?

If people at non band 5 units really felt this deal was that bad why didn't they all vote against it and get the offer rejected? For those complaining that they have been let down by their union I think you have to bear in mind that many of the people who have voted for this deal will be working next to you on the radar/in the tower tomorrow!

And before people start saying "well my unit voted against it..etc" look at the figures again and think, can the band 5 units really account for the 73% that said yes to the deal?

Junior X

p.s Mainecoon, I think implying that the vote was rigged because it wasn't the one you wanted is a bit wide of the mark!

[250 kts]

tug3,

The question of the colours on the envelopes was raised at my unit. Apparently the Engineers were involved in a ballot at the same time and this differentiated the ATCOs from the Engineers. Just so you can check,my envelope had a mark from a yellow highlighter at LACC-what did yours have-and an honest answer please!

How does knowing how the units voted help? It may just prove that many of the units that thought they were going to get a major "no" vote got only a small majority voting "no". It really is irrelevant because if you go down that route most of the SE units have been voted down over the last few years and not once have bleated about rigged ballots or the process being undemocratic. The result is the result-accept it but fight for change at the annual conference.

[tug3]

250kts - In answer to your question, I believe mine was also yellow, so thanks for the explanation. However, the means to I-D the unit remains possible through a process of linking ballot paper numbers to addressees. (If someone can disprove that then please do - I mean that sincerely!).

I accept the result but remain concerned by a feeling I have, (shared by others), of being shafted for the geater good of the 'majority'. I also pay a premium to be represented and feel entitled to expect that such representation is carried out in my best interests. If the TU wants to dispell this feeling it should publish the unit results and people like myself could then have their fears (hopefully) allayed.

I suspect that it will never happen but the fact that the BEC is planning to visit ScOACC and MACC gives me some incling that the BEC is concerned at these unit's results.

I look forward to that meeting!!!

Rgds
T3

PS Can anyone tally up the total number of ATCOs now at Band 5 units?

[Ali Bongo]

I never thought I would hear the day I'd agree with 250kts on this, but you are pretty much right on this.

The vote is so overwhelming in favour it speaks for itself really, and yes we should not be bleating we were beaten fairly and squarely. And it is quite refreshing to see only 1 or 2 idiots have been on here rubbing our noses in it, to be honest I expected more.

There were plenty of people at Macc who voted yes (I didn't), I can think of a dozen off the top off my head who freely admitted it, as they accepted the " money now argument". Fair enough they are entitled to a view as much as the rest of us. So that was no doubt repeated elsewhere, hence the margin of defeat. I think calling for (not that you would get them anyway) Unit by Unit results would only open another can of worms and show just how many people at Macc and other Units did vote yes!

As far as I'm concerned I have now drawn a line under the whole sorry mess that this caused and hopefully we can all move on. I have no intention of leaving Prospect unlike some of my colleagues. How can I change anything if I'm not in the Union to vote, or go to meetings to express my opinion?

[055166k]

Democracy

A winning vote would have been 50% plus "one". The actual result was overwhelming . A loud minority was unable to persuade a sensible majority by force of expletives. I doubt very much that the workforce is merely vote-fodder, or even shallow enough to consider only financial reward. Anyone I have spoken to knew exactly what the deal meant.....good and bad. I want to thank the union for the detailed presentations, and to their on-going commitment to us all. Even without the banding issues this is a good deal......and a ratio of three-to-one recognised this.

[flower]

I never expected the vote to be anything but a yes vote, however I did expect it to be closer IE about 60/40.
Too much money was on the table and to many threats being bandied around ( yes they were).
So what do we do now, will the union honour what they said about addressing all the problems with re-grading.
Some of you out there thought we were throwing our toys out the pram because we did not accept this re-grading as fair, We wanted to get a fair system in place prior to voting it in as we all know full well that there is little likelihood now of getting it changed. I shall be putting motions forward to conference to look at all the issues I raised validly at the union meeting but to which I only got aggressive answers.
Yes we all got a decent pay rise I fully accept that, but my worth has been considerably lessened due to the massive pay differential now between Band 5 units and the majority of airport units on Band 2.
I shall be giving the union a limited amount of time to prove to me that I am getting the same representation as those at band 5 units.
The majority of the pay deal was excellent, they have brought in many good points but i still feel the re-grading issue was hurried and ill thought.

[ayrprox]

I have to say that i'm very disappointed by the ratio of yes/no votes, and have to say to those who are at those units so vehemently against the deal, that voted yes that, although you are well entitled to your view, I hope that you do not complain in the future as the gap between the 4 and 5 units gets bigger and bigger in the future(which i am sure we will be assured won't happen).. i am not blaming the union reps who put in a lot of their personal time but those in the membership who voted with their wallets.What will it take for you to vote no on a deal?
you are all entitled to vote how you wish but I am also allowed my own views. I have never been involved with a union before, but I am at the moment deeply disillusioned with the union system, because i can see no point in being involved in any future negotiations, for as long as a deal which keeps the band 5 units happy is agreed, then it will not matter what i think or whether my unit is being royally sh@fted because we will just be outvoted, I know its a democracy, but that doesn't mean it doesnt suck when you lose .
All I will say to those at now band 5 units is, dont be be like point 7 (who by all accounts appears to be an @rse), be magnanomous in victory like save my bacon and the others here like that.
--------------------------------------
ayrprox ( diillusioned now band 4 atco )

[Jumbo56]

ATCO PAY

Morning all, just want to put my view in answer to all those (reasonable)views on both sides.
I'm a LACC ATCO and just want to say to all the so called 'northern ATCOs' referred to by our 'delightful' colleague P7; We are not all ignorant bigots like that so please try to ignore such comments, they're not worth the effort of getting worked up about.
I think the bitching from some members is insulting and unnecessary... if you don't like what you got it's about time you learnt that in a democracy the majority rules and you can never please everyone! The union reps worked bloody hard for this deal (no, i'm not one of them) and if you're not happy then perhaps you should stand for election yourself...NO? then shut up, grow up and live with the result. And if you're that worried then make sure you get involved with the Union's attempt to address concerns in the coming months.
Firstly I can sympathise with the impression perceived by some at the lower banded units...when I first read the details I was extremely worried that it was unfair...HOWEVER, I attended the union briefing and was very satisfied by the end that it was worked out in a fair manner and that this was the way to go.
After all if it's just money you want then please feel free to apply for your posting to a higher band unit today!! I know many people who would love to move to a lower banded unit (for a whole host of reasons) and have had their posting requests in for YEARS with no joy...There is no denying that for many of us the attraction of a quieter life(I'm not talking just ATC here) AND better quality of the latter is huge. So perhaps those of you who accused higher band unit staff of voting with their pockets you might withdraw such comments...you've probably got a far better chance of getting out of your unit than we have if that's what you want.

[dvdr]

Chip Dyson
The model is wrong fullstop. An alternative has been given and we will now see if the BEC is true to their word and the model is sorted out, provided some individuals are booted out of the process. Their arrogance and lack of knowledge is not acceptable.
I will certainly be expecting a motion to conference for the removal of union bloke
poor guidance and direction to the BEC
ignoring conference direction
ignoring BEC promises to members to keep management happy

[Point Seven]

Right kids

First things first. Calling me an arse on here really doesn't bother me.

Secondly, the chap above me makes the best point - THE MONEY IS THERE TO BE HAD BY ALL. Get out of your Eames leather armchair in your castle and get your application in for a move to band 5 unit. Easy ain't it? And before you all start giving me the line of crap about how you'd never live where I do blah, blah - well, therein lies the problem. Why should others get it when I can't?

I'll tell you all something else too. Band 5 ATCOs aren't all happy either. I mean let's face it, there are some Band 5ers who do a substantial amount less planes than others so they can claim this discrimination too.

This place used to be a great forum for chewing the fat with other ATCOs. Now it has just turned into a place where people go to whine.

P7 (R.I.P)

[Rage]

Well said Jumbo 56.

Until now I've stayed out of the great pay debate in this forum but would willingly move to a lower band unit (if this were possible) as I now recognise that my health is starting to suffer at my Band 5.

I (and many colleagues) are also of the opinion that there is a better model than that drawn up by the union. It's called 'individual unit pay negotiation' and I suspect that there will be a motion put to the next Union Conference proposing the adoption of this.

[250 kts]

dvdr,

You are completely out of order calling for someone to be out of a job by name when you hide behind an alias and please can you clarify what the last 3 lines of your ramblings are all about?

[Chip Dyson]

Hear! Hear! 250kts.

Rage, "individual unit negotiation" is exactly what management want. "Collective" negotiation has to put us in a stronger position.

dvdr, I am really looking forward to seeing what the alternative is.
Has it been worked on for over a year?
Will it be fair for all?
Will it be acceptable to the majority?
Is there a perfect solution?
Will you still be a union member next year?

[dvdr]

Point noted on the name now edited.
Conference stated without question this should have been a one year deal. No feedback to unit reps on the two year and the opinions of the members before going further.
Poor handling of this pay deal has to stop at his door.
The way it was presented was poor, better guidance should have been given.
It was stated that the model didnt really mean anything in the voting papers, then why were bandings based on it???????
The vote itself was not following union rules. Reply, rules are guidelines(since when????????) 30 day rule not followed. Who counted the vote??voting slips not standard???

After the roadshow north of the border BEC members said they would look into the model and the faults picked up by one individual before going any further. The individual went on the wednesday of the following week to talk about the model and its faults but on the Monday of that week union bloke put out a joint statement with management stating that the meeting would not change anything. Who give him the power to over rule the BEC and members???????????????????????? He has not been voted in by the members of this branch but he can be shown the door.
There will always be unhappy people but when major points are missed out of the model because it doesnt happen at the big units is not acceptable. The model was not fair and I will say it again, it was produced by people who have a lack of knowledge in ATC across the whole of NATS. Will it change the order maybe! Will everyone be happy, no!! Is it closer to the truth, yes!

As for being completely out of order, maybe a bit, not completely. But he has been completely out of order. Of course money wise the pay deal was ok but and its a BIG BUT. Over four hundred people voted NO to such a rise because of the attachments and disrespect shown to them. They were prepared to take the fight on for a fair system, not take the money and run.
One thing we have all learnt from this is being fair and acceptable to the majority is two different things.

[055166k]

Unexpected Bonus

I am looking forward to meeting new friends down at Swanwick. For the first time ever it will be genuinely attractive as a posting. Did you realise that with only a dozen or so more controllers the amount of extra capacity will be enormous? Great prospects for promotion too; did you know that only 37% of the controllers at Swanwick actually control traffic. You really can have your cake and eat it too. As they used to say on the TV game show..."Come on down!".

[Don't Tell Him Pike]

To all the "Come on down" brigade, people up north HAVE been putting in for transfers down south, but aren't being releasedby their units. How many times do you need to be told?

I'm not up for moving though, I don't think a Roller and a castle would go with my image

[Chip Dyson]

dvdr,

I say again, what is the alternative?

[Rage]

Don't tell him Pike

My car is seven years old. I can't afford a new one having had to pay a fortune in mortgage costs to buy myself out of the one roomed galleried home I started with.

The real reason your not for moving is that the odd few thousand (even less after tax etc.) doesn't make it attractive enough.

[dvdr]

dont say again to me you .
The alternative is simple put the correct figures into the model couldnt be more simple. But because it changes the order there no change for the vote which has gone through. Band 5 will need to have more members or one unit wont like being relegated. The formula is wrong too if tc and lacc had a million ATCO's each they still score higher than the rest.

[tug3]

C'mon all you number-crunchers out there, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me of the 1830 members in the Branch, how many (including students) are currently posted at what are now Band 5 units?????

Somebody must know - please speak up!!!

Rgds
T3