Thankyou PPRune
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Thankyou PPRune
I have been a member of pprune now for a just over a year, and it has been a huge help.
I have just found out that I have been succesful in passing the interview stage of the recruitment programme.
I found the posting of PPrune Radar the greatest help in my research.
The difficult part is yet to come, as I know that the course is going to be very hard.
So a great big thankyou to this web-site and all who offered me advice and encouragement.
I have just found out that I have been succesful in passing the interview stage of the recruitment programme.
I found the posting of PPrune Radar the greatest help in my research.
The difficult part is yet to come, as I know that the course is going to be very hard.
So a great big thankyou to this web-site and all who offered me advice and encouragement.
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You lucky, lucky ba....
aaaabbbbcccc1111,
well done . One side of me wishes you all the luck in the world for the most exciting time of your life and am really really pleased for you, the other side of me is jealous as can be and utterly confused and demoralised.
You realise that you are also the 1st person to post a "successful - got in" message. I'll be the first to say bo$$ocks "what happened?"
No luck for dear old WF. On the scrapheap, fin. That's after a total of 6 years trying, of which the last two have been pure agony.
No sour grapes, but after spending time and effort on passing all the computer testing, psychological tests and reaction tests, and then having a near miss on my 1st ever interview (for which I wasn't the best prepared, but did enough to convince the ATCO I was worth a 2nd look) - why oh why did the final decision rest on the shoulders of a single person?
After the "measureable" side of the computer tests, it seem absurd that the interview was not recorded and was only judged by one ATCO. I don't really care how good any ATCO/person is at making a judgement, but humans are fallible in everything (just as I seemed to have been at interview) and therefore should have had some sort of back-up such as a second person - not neccesarily an ATCO, but a NATS employee of some sort to confer with.
When was the last time you were interviewed by ONE person for a job of any significance?? I was interviewed by 3 people for my job stcking shelves at Tesco's as a lad, and there's not many people you can kill by stacking shelves poorly.
Not having a go at the ATCO (or any other ATCO's) as I respect his judgement, just the fact that it is only his judgement after spending so much time and money analysing applicants with the psychometric tests that it seems absurd to put all that on one person's shoulders.
The way I gave good, logical, constructive and precise answers to the questions, demonstrated a very good knowledge beyond the requirements (or the 1998 stuff hr send out) and was able to apply that knowledge, the obvious enthusiasm I displayed on the day and the determination I'd made to get that far didn't count for a sausage.
The biggest slap in the face was not just the rejection (I can handle that, otherwise I shouldn't have applied) but the way I was simply told "you were unsuccessful" - no reason, no indication, not even an offer of a reason.
Judgement of one person has affected my whole future - the one which I put on hold for almost 2 years as hr hadn't decided where they wanted to put their pencils......
Any ppruner out there (or interviewing ATCO dare to?) explain what the criteria are for entry and how you "judge" that the criteria have been met? The HR stuff I followed to a T, sought advice off many of you, visited Cardiff tower twice (hi there!) recently, stole, begged and borrowed information and then spent Christmas on my own revising like the devil posessed. Still it wasn't enough, and I'm not blowing my own trumpet here, but to do "as advised" and still fail, without being given a reason is galling.
Put yourself in my shoes and think about it.
WF (over and out)
P.S. Was going to be gentlemanly about it and grumble in private, but I feel like I've been sh$%&, so why should I give a damn? There's no way I can appeal the result even if I wanted to.
P.P.S. Excuse spelling, extensive revision and current state of blind range has reduced capacity to think without uttering the word bo$$ocks every 5 seconds.......
well done
. One side of me wishes you all the luck in the world for the most exciting time of your life and am really really pleased for you, the other side of me is jealous as can be and utterly confused and demoralised.You realise that you are also the 1st person to post a "successful - got in" message. I'll be the first to say bo$$ocks "what happened?"
No luck for dear old WF. On the scrapheap, fin. That's after a total of 6 years trying, of which the last two have been pure agony.
No sour grapes, but after spending time and effort on passing all the computer testing, psychological tests and reaction tests, and then having a near miss on my 1st ever interview (for which I wasn't the best prepared, but did enough to convince the ATCO I was worth a 2nd look) - why oh why did the final decision rest on the shoulders of a single person?
After the "measureable" side of the computer tests, it seem absurd that the interview was not recorded and was only judged by one ATCO. I don't really care how good any ATCO/person is at making a judgement, but humans are fallible in everything (just as I seemed to have been at interview) and therefore should have had some sort of back-up such as a second person - not neccesarily an ATCO, but a NATS employee of some sort to confer with.
When was the last time you were interviewed by ONE person for a job of any significance?? I was interviewed by 3 people for my job stcking shelves at Tesco's as a lad, and there's not many people you can kill by stacking shelves poorly.
Not having a go at the ATCO (or any other ATCO's) as I respect his judgement, just the fact that it is only his judgement after spending so much time and money analysing applicants with the psychometric tests that it seems absurd to put all that on one person's shoulders.
The way I gave good, logical, constructive and precise answers to the questions, demonstrated a very good knowledge beyond the requirements (or the 1998 stuff hr send out) and was able to apply that knowledge, the obvious enthusiasm I displayed on the day and the determination I'd made to get that far didn't count for a sausage.
The biggest slap in the face was not just the rejection (I can handle that, otherwise I shouldn't have applied) but the way I was simply told "you were unsuccessful" - no reason, no indication, not even an offer of a reason.
Judgement of one person has affected my whole future - the one which I put on hold for almost 2 years as hr hadn't decided where they wanted to put their pencils......
Any ppruner out there (or interviewing ATCO dare to?) explain what the criteria are for entry and how you "judge" that the criteria have been met? The HR stuff I followed to a T, sought advice off many of you, visited Cardiff tower twice (hi there!) recently, stole, begged and borrowed information and then spent Christmas on my own revising like the devil posessed. Still it wasn't enough, and I'm not blowing my own trumpet here, but to do "as advised" and still fail, without being given a reason is galling.
Put yourself in my shoes and think about it.
WF (over and out)
P.S. Was going to be gentlemanly about it and grumble in private, but I feel like I've been sh$%&, so why should I give a damn? There's no way I can appeal the result even if I wanted to.
P.P.S. Excuse spelling, extensive revision and current state of blind range has reduced capacity to think without uttering the word bo$$ocks every 5 seconds.......
Write to them and ask for an explanation as to why you were un-successful. I did on my first failed attempt and they sent me quite a comprehensive letter as to what areas I was weak in. This helped me get in the second time.
If you still have another attempt up your sleeve I recommend writing them a letter, although I would'nt use phraseology you have used in your post or they'll probably bin it!
If you still have another attempt up your sleeve I recommend writing them a letter, although I would'nt use phraseology you have used in your post or they'll probably bin it!
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Let's play Lotto!
Alpha 16,
hear hear!! I am really quite scared by the fact that a) one person can decide your fate, despite all your efforts, they might not like you for one very trivial reason and then you have no recourse to argue as it's "his/her judgement", b) like you say, that the result is decided by what the ATCO thinks of you in the hour he gets to meet you. They don't ask what you have done to get this far, what you've read, where you've been, who've you spoken to etc.
I am very worried that the ATCO who interviewed me simply rang up and said "niet". I seriously doubt that the personallity tests, psychometric tests and my cv were even consulted. Why? As I don't think that HR had a reason - they weren't able to give me any reason when I called/emailed - most respectable firms HR depts would keep a file or database on this, obviously NATS don't need to. So I have to wait for 2 weeks to find out "why", when they should give you the reason in your letter.
So, I currently believe that my future as an ATCO has been decided on the opinion of one ATCO, when I have met and impressed many (hi to Cardiff Tower Z & X watch) with knowledge, questions and enthusiasm. This one person has decided that I am not fit to even grace the college on talking to me for an hour - that's after 6 years spent applying, so they ought to have a rather large file of information to help base that decision. That's a big insult to me, and I have never ever encountered a similar situation when being interviewed for a job as an adult.
The whole experience has left a bitter taste and does not show this "premier" institution in a good light. Neither does the fact that they deem one person sufficient to decide who to recruit - could that be deemed as illegal? I certainly think it's stupid to rely on one opinion.
Again, maybe the beancounters have struck and saved NATS a whopping £200-500 a day due to not having a second person recruiting. Shame that people are the main resource of NATS, but then again, you don't have to worry too much about people's "hearts and minds". If they carry on like that once on the "indside", then I'm probably better off not being part of it, as it stinks from where I'm sitting.
Alpha 16 - our desire, effort and enthusiasm don't mean that we'd make good controllers, but it cetrtainly shows that we'd not fail them through lack of trying. Where I come from, that counts for an awful lot, but it doesn't seem to count for much to NATS.......
What do you do???
Alpha 16 - best of luck for the result mate. I hope it's better than mine and you find a big envelope on your doormat, not the thin one with the 4 line response to almost 2 (or 6 in total) years worth of effort. Even the naggers caused less strife than NATS have!!
Cheers and best of luck to all in the NATS recruitment lottery!
WF
P.S. Hooray for Pprune so I could find out more about my dream of becoming an ATCO and now, thanks to HR and their indifference I can now slate the company I wanted to work for above all other things.
Not that WF'd do that of course......
hear hear!! I am really quite scared by the fact that a) one person can decide your fate, despite all your efforts, they might not like you for one very trivial reason and then you have no recourse to argue as it's "his/her judgement", b) like you say, that the result is decided by what the ATCO thinks of you in the hour he gets to meet you. They don't ask what you have done to get this far, what you've read, where you've been, who've you spoken to etc.
I am very worried that the ATCO who interviewed me simply rang up and said "niet". I seriously doubt that the personallity tests, psychometric tests and my cv were even consulted. Why? As I don't think that HR had a reason - they weren't able to give me any reason when I called/emailed - most respectable firms HR depts would keep a file or database on this, obviously NATS don't need to. So I have to wait for 2 weeks to find out "why", when they should give you the reason in your letter.
So, I currently believe that my future as an ATCO has been decided on the opinion of one ATCO, when I have met and impressed many (hi to Cardiff Tower Z & X watch) with knowledge, questions and enthusiasm. This one person has decided that I am not fit to even grace the college on talking to me for an hour - that's after 6 years spent applying, so they ought to have a rather large file of information to help base that decision. That's a big insult to me, and I have never ever encountered a similar situation when being interviewed for a job as an adult.
The whole experience has left a bitter taste and does not show this "premier" institution in a good light. Neither does the fact that they deem one person sufficient to decide who to recruit - could that be deemed as illegal? I certainly think it's stupid to rely on one opinion.
Again, maybe the beancounters have struck and saved NATS a whopping £200-500 a day due to not having a second person recruiting. Shame that people are the main resource of NATS, but then again, you don't have to worry too much about people's "hearts and minds". If they carry on like that once on the "indside", then I'm probably better off not being part of it, as it stinks from where I'm sitting.
Alpha 16 - our desire, effort and enthusiasm don't mean that we'd make good controllers, but it cetrtainly shows that we'd not fail them through lack of trying. Where I come from, that counts for an awful lot, but it doesn't seem to count for much to NATS.......
What do you do???
Alpha 16 - best of luck for the result mate. I hope it's better than mine and you find a big envelope on your doormat, not the thin one with the 4 line response to almost 2 (or 6 in total) years worth of effort. Even the naggers caused less strife than NATS have!!
Cheers and best of luck to all in the NATS recruitment lottery!
WF
P.S. Hooray for Pprune so I could find out more about my dream of becoming an ATCO and now, thanks to HR and their indifference I can now slate the company I wanted to work for above all other things.
Not that WF'd do that of course......
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WF you should try applying to Eurocontrol. I went through an almost identical process to you and Alpha16 with Nats a few years back.... at the very least, you'll have a fair interview (after passing the tests) consisting of a board of three. One instructor from the Institute in Luxembourg, one personnel specialist, and a controller from Maastricht UAC. When i had the final interview with Nats, it was jobsworth HR specialist (ahem*) asking a list of questions from a clipboard, prompting one or two word answers and looking at you like you've just farted if you try and expand any responses beyond one sentence. I know exactly how you feel about the "executive decision" made by one person, its bollocks mate. Give Eurocontrol a shot, it was the best thing I've ever done.
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Alpha 16,
sorry - read into it what I was thinking
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, but don't think that the HR dept. have thought to look for the previous information.
Maybe it's still in Kemble Street in London or they used the paperwork for packing filler.....
The story about the "mate" is something none of us want to hear, least those who have been binned to make way for the wasters (I know, we're not against each other, just the system - but the system & opinion of an ATCO didn't wevil that one out, did it?)
I think that Helicon said it with the way Eurocontrol hold their interviews "
"
I'm a bit of a europhile, and would love to see some intergration on this topic! At least then, you know that the decision has been made by people who'll deal with you from start to finish - not just someone who thinks "can I work with this person in 3 years time".
It's a bit more professional too (and makes you feel a bit more prized than the NATS process would).
Talking of indifference, despite being too old now to re-apply for Eurocontrol (why didn't I see the ad 6 years ago??), the nice HR chap there is more than willing to answer my emails and questions. NATS HR have a big answer wall - one of silence.
Rant over - beer in.
WF
sorry - read into it what I was thinking
All I was trying to point out is that maybe the recruitment dept as a whole (not individual interviewers as such.. they are following procedure after all) should consider the bigger picture when judging candidates most likely to suceed at the college. This IS the whole aim of the recruitment program and as far as I can make out (from various posts and from past and present ATC students), it's not working to the extent that you would expect from such an extensive and thorough process.
Maybe it's still in Kemble Street in London or they used the paperwork for packing filler.....
The story about the "mate" is something none of us want to hear, least those who have been binned to make way for the wasters (I know, we're not against each other, just the system - but the system & opinion of an ATCO didn't wevil that one out, did it?)
I think that Helicon said it with the way Eurocontrol hold their interviews "
you'll have a fair interview (after passing the tests) consisting of a board of three. One instructor from the Institute in Luxembourg, one personnel specialist, and a controller from Maastricht UAC
I'm a bit of a europhile, and would love to see some intergration on this topic! At least then, you know that the decision has been made by people who'll deal with you from start to finish - not just someone who thinks "can I work with this person in 3 years time".
It's a bit more professional too (and makes you feel a bit more prized than the NATS process would).
Talking of indifference, despite being too old now to re-apply for Eurocontrol (why didn't I see the ad 6 years ago??), the nice HR chap there is more than willing to answer my emails and questions. NATS HR have a big answer wall - one of silence.
Rant over - beer in.
WF
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Weselfluren,
I am an NATS ATCO and interviewer. It is not down to one ATCO whether you get accepted. You must successfully complete the computer tests, the personnel interview and the techinical interview with the ATCO. A failure on any one of these three and you will be rejected. Every candidate is discussed at the end of the day and if there is a marginal case, it is looked at thoroughly.
NATS is desperate for suitable candidates but they are rightly very fussy when they are about to invest at least a quarter of a million quid and approx four years into you.
It might be worth bearing in mind that they may have done you a favour in that as the recruitment process suggests - you may not be suitable for the job, saving you a lot of hard work followed by bitter disappointment futher down the road.
If you really believe in yourself yourself and your ability you could always self fund like many pilots have to, or perhaps apply to become an assistant with the likes of SERCO and then try and get trained by them.
Good luck with it all.
I am an NATS ATCO and interviewer. It is not down to one ATCO whether you get accepted. You must successfully complete the computer tests, the personnel interview and the techinical interview with the ATCO. A failure on any one of these three and you will be rejected. Every candidate is discussed at the end of the day and if there is a marginal case, it is looked at thoroughly.
NATS is desperate for suitable candidates but they are rightly very fussy when they are about to invest at least a quarter of a million quid and approx four years into you.
It might be worth bearing in mind that they may have done you a favour in that as the recruitment process suggests - you may not be suitable for the job, saving you a lot of hard work followed by bitter disappointment futher down the road.
If you really believe in yourself yourself and your ability you could always self fund like many pilots have to, or perhaps apply to become an assistant with the likes of SERCO and then try and get trained by them.
Good luck with it all.
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Is it true, Bobblehat, that once you've been approved as an Interviewer that no further checks of your competancy of interviewing are made after certain periods of time?
WF - It took me three (and a half) attempts to pass the interview stages, with one of the failure letters coming to me saying that I "was not suitable to work in an ATC enviroment" - an interesting statement as I had been working in ATC for 11 years. How much did HR really know about me?
Anyway, I prevailed and made it, but if you're still interested in ATC the ATSA life is not bad at all.
WF - It took me three (and a half) attempts to pass the interview stages, with one of the failure letters coming to me saying that I "was not suitable to work in an ATC enviroment" - an interesting statement as I had been working in ATC for 11 years. How much did HR really know about me?
Anyway, I prevailed and made it, but if you're still interested in ATC the ATSA life is not bad at all.
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Just in case you thought it couldn't get any worse...
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The purpose of the interview is to find out more about who and what you are, and are held for much the same reason that oral boards are undertaken as part of the examination process.
Its your chance to prove your understanding of the technical competence required, along with your personal abilities, ambitions and asperations.
That applies to almost any industry, not just ATC.
It doesn't matter if you've had 0 or 100 years experience in ATC,
if you can't express yourself properly in an interview situation, you'll never hack the pressures you'll be expected to cope with as an atco.
Its your chance to prove your understanding of the technical competence required, along with your personal abilities, ambitions and asperations.
That applies to almost any industry, not just ATC.
It doesn't matter if you've had 0 or 100 years experience in ATC,
if you can't express yourself properly in an interview situation, you'll never hack the pressures you'll be expected to cope with as an atco.
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if you can't express yourself properly in an interview situation, you'll never hack the pressures you'll be expected to cope with as an atco.
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I think at this point a little reminder of the WHOLE training process should be prompted.
It isn't simply being selected for a course in the college. You could have the highest aptitude test results ever, yet not be able to work in a team environment, or be able to express yourself clearly to others. On undertaking the course, you may have the highest grades on your written work ever, yet not be able to vector aircraft, or conversly be a radar guru, yet not be able to remember or adhere to the Temporary Instruction you read half an hour ago reference a Temporary Restricted Area that has been activated. You may have a knack for moving stuff around your airspace, yet constantly not have a clue how presentation to the next sector can sink them. .
Then you get posted to you unit on successful completion of the college. From day 1, as right or wrong as it may be, you are being judged and assessed on your abilities and who you are. There are milestones to be met all the way along right up to the point where you are recommended for a validation board. It isn't uncommon for trainees to reach a "hump" in their training, where they have progressed well to a point, yet can't seem to make that final push towards the goal.
I think you'll find people like Bobblehat who undertake the selection process have a fair idea what NATS is looking for. They have an hour to gain a snapshot.
It isn't simply being selected for a course in the college. You could have the highest aptitude test results ever, yet not be able to work in a team environment, or be able to express yourself clearly to others. On undertaking the course, you may have the highest grades on your written work ever, yet not be able to vector aircraft, or conversly be a radar guru, yet not be able to remember or adhere to the Temporary Instruction you read half an hour ago reference a Temporary Restricted Area that has been activated. You may have a knack for moving stuff around your airspace, yet constantly not have a clue how presentation to the next sector can sink them. .
Then you get posted to you unit on successful completion of the college. From day 1, as right or wrong as it may be, you are being judged and assessed on your abilities and who you are. There are milestones to be met all the way along right up to the point where you are recommended for a validation board. It isn't uncommon for trainees to reach a "hump" in their training, where they have progressed well to a point, yet can't seem to make that final push towards the goal.
I think you'll find people like Bobblehat who undertake the selection process have a fair idea what NATS is looking for. They have an hour to gain a snapshot.
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 8th Feb 2004 at 00:52.
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hmmmm..
Well, well! You go away for one day and look what happens......
Bobblehat - I seriously doubt that you are an "interviewing ATCO", or if so have not done many recently, like what you said, very much the attitude of what a lot of us have faced....
No, I fully agree with what you go on to say, but having satisfied the computers in the testing phases, the guy with the glass eye/nervous twitch who doesn't like anything longer than one sentence, SHOULD IT COME DOWN TO THE OPINION OF ONE ATCO ON HIS/HER OWN?
If you don't impress him/her you're binned.
When do they discuss the candidate? Who with? There was no one else present at the interview, so they can say what they like and if they forget, who's to know? Ever tried making minutes at a meeting? Try doing 6 different meetings in one day, with little or no break inbetween and I'd expect most of the candidates to be of a half decent standard, so difficult to seperate. Well, in effect they've got to do that and run the meeting, and they're bound to forget some important facts about you.
The impression I've been left with is that you sit your interview and the rest of the application data/information is not consulted.
it's important to remember that most of us that this problem applies to were "near misses" and only had the 1 hr technical interview with an ATCO
So no tests or other opinions on the day. Tell me if I'm wrong, but we must have been oh so close beforhand not to have gotten in, yet been given the second chance (and in my case final) to shine.
My original gripe is the method of telling you and the lack of caring about the candidate. Now, on realisation of how ludicrous it is, I am also very narked about the way the interview is held.
If NATS is so good, why are they not as thourough as Eurocontrol and have a panel interview? Obviously cash is really tight in Swanwick right now...... Why not donate some of the Senior Management Bonuses (for all the ATCO's hard work) to the application system to make it fair and a bit more professional. Even a 5 figure sum couldn't sort out the current process.
If you get an interview pack, with the date of 1998 on the front (the Mark Crane booklet) then I don't want to guess how dated the hr process actually is.
I suggest getting some retired ATCO's involved on a consultancy basis, just to keep them in line and offer some "real world advice". And get a couple more pairs of ears involved, as it's too big a decision for us applicants to take lightly, even if the f&*$%wits that run the process don't give a blue monkey's ar$e about it (and us) all.........
HENCE WE ARE ALL SEETHING AND AT A LOSS - BECAUSE HR DON'T GIVE FEEDBACK AND WON'T
- why, do you actually think they know (or care) why you are rejected? Another number through the system, not that it's a real person or anything.
I know of people who have come from abroad, done well only to be told that they can't be considered as they are deemed risky of going "back home to work" after training up......
Not that they'd say something like that prior to an application going in or anything.
Bobblehat et al. - We do realise how much it costs NATS to train us, how much it costs us personally and mentally, and what it entails - we need to, to have stayed with the process for so long.
Jerrico - if you are being assessed for teamwork, then why is there no teamwork test? Why is there only one ATCO interviewing you (good teamwork that!). We realise that it's "in at the deep end" so to speak, but then the nice trainers at Hurn ought to have taught you a lot after 18 months (why don't they involve them at selection stages?)
Also Jerrico, no disrespect to you or the company, but, we as trainees are taking a big risk here with our futures (we're not fresh faced out of college kids - hence no Eurocontrol option for us...). I know there is 1 hour to make a judgement, but I hope that if I faced a court, that the jury wouldn't be the judge too and that there would be the full complement of 10 in that jury.....
The NATS process doesn't seem fair - Have you ever tried phoning up the nice people at HR - they just don't give a flying $%££. Why should they deal with the irrated person on the end of the phone? Why should they answer your letter? No one knows you called....
Pprune gave me more answers than HR ever would or could. I have no respect for them, and if they had sent a letter of acceptance, then I would have wondered if they'd got it right - they sent me invites to 3 venues on 4 different days.
This treatment will leave the most good natured person with a dose of bitterness. I only wish I saw that Eurocontrol ad 6 years ago and had not seen the ad from NATS, and that hurts to say (even now, after all the crap they put me through).
6 years of my life in pursuit of my ambition of becoming an ATCO (believe me, it was a lot of effort and seemed worth it at the time) all for a piece of paper with 2 sentences on it......
F$%&wits
WF (still)
Bobblehat - I seriously doubt that you are an "interviewing ATCO", or if so have not done many recently, like what you said, very much the attitude of what a lot of us have faced....
It is not down to one ATCO whether you get accepted
If you don't impress him/her you're binned.
When do they discuss the candidate? Who with? There was no one else present at the interview, so they can say what they like and if they forget, who's to know? Ever tried making minutes at a meeting? Try doing 6 different meetings in one day, with little or no break inbetween and I'd expect most of the candidates to be of a half decent standard, so difficult to seperate. Well, in effect they've got to do that and run the meeting, and they're bound to forget some important facts about you.
The impression I've been left with is that you sit your interview and the rest of the application data/information is not consulted.
it's important to remember that most of us that this problem applies to were "near misses" and only had the 1 hr technical interview with an ATCO
So no tests or other opinions on the day. Tell me if I'm wrong, but we must have been oh so close beforhand not to have gotten in, yet been given the second chance (and in my case final) to shine.
My original gripe is the method of telling you and the lack of caring about the candidate. Now, on realisation of how ludicrous it is, I am also very narked about the way the interview is held.
If NATS is so good, why are they not as thourough as Eurocontrol and have a panel interview? Obviously cash is really tight in Swanwick right now...... Why not donate some of the Senior Management Bonuses (for all the ATCO's hard work) to the application system to make it fair and a bit more professional. Even a 5 figure sum couldn't sort out the current process.
If you get an interview pack, with the date of 1998 on the front (the Mark Crane booklet) then I don't want to guess how dated the hr process actually is.
I suggest getting some retired ATCO's involved on a consultancy basis, just to keep them in line and offer some "real world advice". And get a couple more pairs of ears involved, as it's too big a decision for us applicants to take lightly, even if the f&*$%wits that run the process don't give a blue monkey's ar$e about it (and us) all.........
HENCE WE ARE ALL SEETHING AND AT A LOSS - BECAUSE HR DON'T GIVE FEEDBACK AND WON'T
- why, do you actually think they know (or care) why you are rejected? Another number through the system, not that it's a real person or anything.I know of people who have come from abroad, done well only to be told that they can't be considered as they are deemed risky of going "back home to work" after training up......
Not that they'd say something like that prior to an application going in or anything.
Bobblehat et al. - We do realise how much it costs NATS to train us, how much it costs us personally and mentally, and what it entails - we need to, to have stayed with the process for so long.
Jerrico - if you are being assessed for teamwork, then why is there no teamwork test? Why is there only one ATCO interviewing you (good teamwork that!). We realise that it's "in at the deep end" so to speak, but then the nice trainers at Hurn ought to have taught you a lot after 18 months (why don't they involve them at selection stages?)
Also Jerrico, no disrespect to you or the company, but, we as trainees are taking a big risk here with our futures (we're not fresh faced out of college kids - hence no Eurocontrol option for us...). I know there is 1 hour to make a judgement, but I hope that if I faced a court, that the jury wouldn't be the judge too and that there would be the full complement of 10 in that jury.....
The NATS process doesn't seem fair - Have you ever tried phoning up the nice people at HR - they just don't give a flying $%££. Why should they deal with the irrated person on the end of the phone? Why should they answer your letter? No one knows you called....
Pprune gave me more answers than HR ever would or could. I have no respect for them, and if they had sent a letter of acceptance, then I would have wondered if they'd got it right - they sent me invites to 3 venues on 4 different days.
This treatment will leave the most good natured person with a dose of bitterness. I only wish I saw that Eurocontrol ad 6 years ago and had not seen the ad from NATS, and that hurts to say (even now, after all the crap they put me through).
6 years of my life in pursuit of my ambition of becoming an ATCO (believe me, it was a lot of effort and seemed worth it at the time) all for a piece of paper with 2 sentences on it......
F$%&wits
WF
(still)
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Thankyou for your interesting and frank responses.
I'll just raise a couple of points and then will leave the topic as it will just run and run with traded insults.
The interviewers are voluntary, they get no extra pay and ususally work in their regular break in the shift cycle. The system is proven and whether you like it or not, is the model most ATC recruiters follow in Europe. Some countries actually contract NATS to recruit for them e.g Holland. The reason NATS is desperate for trainee air traffic controllers is due to the lack of suitable candidates not due to the amount of failures within it's recruitment and training system.
What they will not do is take unnecessary chances with
1. Their investment and
2. With your lives.
Many people give up good careers to become ATCO's and don't make the grade. This is bad for all.
All interviewers attend specific courses for the technical interviews which then lead to a number of days sitting in with a qualified interviewer who needs to approve them before they go solo.Interviewers are liable at any time to be monitored in the process by their colleagues from HR.
For those so vocal, why not self fund or join as an ATSA then reapply, or perhaps join another ATC provider. Where there's a will there's a way. Get off your p.c and get on with it.
Best of luck to you all. If there are any genuine enquiries about the system I"ll be pleased to help.
I'll just raise a couple of points and then will leave the topic as it will just run and run with traded insults.
The interviewers are voluntary, they get no extra pay and ususally work in their regular break in the shift cycle. The system is proven and whether you like it or not, is the model most ATC recruiters follow in Europe. Some countries actually contract NATS to recruit for them e.g Holland. The reason NATS is desperate for trainee air traffic controllers is due to the lack of suitable candidates not due to the amount of failures within it's recruitment and training system.
What they will not do is take unnecessary chances with
1. Their investment and
2. With your lives.
Many people give up good careers to become ATCO's and don't make the grade. This is bad for all.
All interviewers attend specific courses for the technical interviews which then lead to a number of days sitting in with a qualified interviewer who needs to approve them before they go solo.Interviewers are liable at any time to be monitored in the process by their colleagues from HR.
For those so vocal, why not self fund or join as an ATSA then reapply, or perhaps join another ATC provider. Where there's a will there's a way. Get off your p.c and get on with it.
Best of luck to you all. If there are any genuine enquiries about the system I"ll be pleased to help.
Ohcirrej
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Weslefluren,
I think you forget that we ALL went through the same application process you are sledging (and not that you probably care, but I did it from the other side of the world). We all made the same sacrifices and risks to our futures. And we all went through the preparation you have to do for the selection process. (At this point I would like to add some of us went through this more recently than others and have a very good memory of it all!). This isn't an attempt at "look at us, we're so effin good we can do it and you can't", just a simple reminder.
And yes, I have dealt with HR (funny that), and while sometimes they are a little difficult to get hold of (their being shipped around the country hasn't exactly helped them), if you honestly believe they don't give a flying "f**k"...........well let's just say that "attitude" is showing through again. "f&*$%wits that run the process don't give a blue monkey's ar$e about it "....... nice. I think your letting your emotions cloud what your posting here. Once again, would you be calling them f&*$%wits to their faces or in an interview.
I think you forget that we ALL went through the same application process you are sledging (and not that you probably care, but I did it from the other side of the world). We all made the same sacrifices and risks to our futures. And we all went through the preparation you have to do for the selection process. (At this point I would like to add some of us went through this more recently than others and have a very good memory of it all!). This isn't an attempt at "look at us, we're so effin good we can do it and you can't", just a simple reminder.
And yes, I have dealt with HR (funny that), and while sometimes they are a little difficult to get hold of (their being shipped around the country hasn't exactly helped them), if you honestly believe they don't give a flying "f**k"...........well let's just say that "attitude" is showing through again. "f&*$%wits that run the process don't give a blue monkey's ar$e about it "....... nice. I think your letting your emotions cloud what your posting here. Once again, would you be calling them f&*$%wits to their faces or in an interview.
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In one breath it is mentioned perhaps assessment needs to be reviewed, yet in the next people question why so many people are unsuccessful at the college. It doesn't take a Masters degree to work this one out does it? And (as unfortunate as it is), there are people who are successful on their first attempt at selection, yet for what ever reason are failed in the college (I suppose you'll blame the college for this.................they passed aptitude testing, surely they should be able to complete the college!). And some people who do stick at applying are successful at later stages for a whole host of reasons...........experience, maturity or better preparation.
Yes NATS have their expectations. Eurocontrol have their expectations. Asking "why wasn't I good enough for NATS but good enough for Eurocontrol" isn't a fair argument. Nav Canada accept experienced controllers, other ATS providers don't. The US require you to be a US citizen. They set the requirements. If you don't like it.....................
Yes NATS have their expectations. Eurocontrol have their expectations. Asking "why wasn't I good enough for NATS but good enough for Eurocontrol" isn't a fair argument. Nav Canada accept experienced controllers, other ATS providers don't. The US require you to be a US citizen. They set the requirements. If you don't like it.....................
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My opinion......
Bobblehat - no rant about the ATCO, just the process.
Jerrico et al. - sorry about the language (big enough to say sorry), but take one minute to imagine yourself going through the system when you did, only to be binned for no reason you know, being offered no reason and getting no reason. That's after a 4 line letter telling you you're no good.
I haven't forgotten that you all go through the system. Just YOU forgot that the HR dept moved from London to Swanwick (which took 9 months), don't bother to communicate with the candidates and that this gripe is purely about a "near miss" interview. So it only refers to the interview, as that is what their decision was based on!
Where there's a complaint, there's a reason. There are set ways of getting into ATC agreed, but I doubt it very much that the majority of the world's ATC organisations (or any other company for that matter) would employ staff on the judgement of one person.
That is the gripe. One person interview to save money? Why not cut back on ATCO's to save a bit more........?!? That's the way things go, and it seems that NATS is on the slide.
A different post to this has a trainee talking about the pay scale. I don't think that money should be the driving force, but if the training salaries are being dropped, that's only because they know there are 100 recruits to every position and that most will do it because they really want to do the job. That's HR indifference again.
Ever read any Dilbert strips? Well, about half of them apply here - in my opinion (and that's all it has ever been).
Tongue is firmly tied down, Pprune even banned by Mrs WF (who is sick of the whole saga now) and the sad thing is that I really don't care about what HR or any ATCO's have to say about it all now. The desire to become an ATCO has been drained from me by the recruitment policy, the indifference that eminates from the organisation and the "if you don't like it, get lost" attitude displayed on this forum by one or two who are in the game and supposedly know their stuff. No job should be begged for (ok, a bit strong that) and if the job is as demanding and consuming as I'd imagined, then the HR procedure should be falling over itself to keep ALL of the candidates happy - not just those it sees as immediate recruits.
Common sense is a very valuable commodity. Not much seems to exist within the company....
Again, apologies for profanities - it is the system I have my gripe with, and they weren't directed at individuals.
But, then there is no fire without a spark, is there.....
WF and very much
Jerrico et al. - sorry about the language (big enough to say sorry), but take one minute to imagine yourself going through the system when you did, only to be binned for no reason you know, being offered no reason and getting no reason. That's after a 4 line letter telling you you're no good.
I haven't forgotten that you all go through the system. Just YOU forgot that the HR dept moved from London to Swanwick (which took 9 months), don't bother to communicate with the candidates and that this gripe is purely about a "near miss" interview. So it only refers to the interview, as that is what their decision was based on!
Where there's a complaint, there's a reason. There are set ways of getting into ATC agreed, but I doubt it very much that the majority of the world's ATC organisations (or any other company for that matter) would employ staff on the judgement of one person.
That is the gripe. One person interview to save money? Why not cut back on ATCO's to save a bit more........?!? That's the way things go, and it seems that NATS is on the slide.
A different post to this has a trainee talking about the pay scale. I don't think that money should be the driving force, but if the training salaries are being dropped, that's only because they know there are 100 recruits to every position and that most will do it because they really want to do the job. That's HR indifference again.
Ever read any Dilbert strips? Well, about half of them apply here - in my opinion (and that's all it has ever been).
Tongue is firmly tied down, Pprune even banned by Mrs WF (who is sick of the whole saga now) and the sad thing is that I really don't care about what HR or any ATCO's have to say about it all now. The desire to become an ATCO has been drained from me by the recruitment policy, the indifference that eminates from the organisation and the "if you don't like it, get lost" attitude displayed on this forum by one or two who are in the game and supposedly know their stuff. No job should be begged for (ok, a bit strong that) and if the job is as demanding and consuming as I'd imagined, then the HR procedure should be falling over itself to keep ALL of the candidates happy - not just those it sees as immediate recruits.
Common sense is a very valuable commodity. Not much seems to exist within the company....
Again, apologies for profanities - it is the system I have my gripe with, and they weren't directed at individuals.
But, then there is no fire without a spark, is there.....
WF
and very much
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Jerrico,
I have tried asking that one to myself, but the lack of response from HR (after over two weeks now) means that I can't answer that one - especially after the way I'd conducted myself in the interview. Completely at a loss.
Oh well, the final option is always emmigration and Airservices..... I hear that they don't post any one to Middlemount (my previous life as a rock doc in Australia)0, so it's got to be a good organisation to work for.
Glad that there seems to be a bit of an understanding with the gripe(s) - hopefully in future the process won't be so frustrating for others - although in all honesty, to put the courses back again and drop the training salary would put all but the most determined (and those without financial commitments) off.
Alpha16 - appeal? Thought about it, but it's my opinion against that of the ATCO, so doubt I'd get far with that. Also, the above changes don't entice me to try any more. I spent the past year of hassling HR and all and sundry on Pprune for info, and frankly I've lost the spirit to do so. NATS loss is theirs - that of someone who would have done anything to succeed as an ATCO and come in full of enthusiasm and respect. Time to move on, the hand has been forced.
Food for thought.
WF
ask yourself this question. Why was I not selected, yet the person ahead of me or behind me was?? Was it the same person conducting the interview each time?
Oh well, the final option is always emmigration and Airservices..... I hear that they don't post any one to Middlemount (my previous life as a rock doc in Australia)0, so it's got to be a good organisation to work for.
Glad that there seems to be a bit of an understanding with the gripe(s) - hopefully in future the process won't be so frustrating for others - although in all honesty, to put the courses back again and drop the training salary would put all but the most determined (and those without financial commitments) off.
Alpha16 - appeal? Thought about it, but it's my opinion against that of the ATCO, so doubt I'd get far with that. Also, the above changes don't entice me to try any more. I spent the past year of hassling HR and all and sundry on Pprune for info, and frankly I've lost the spirit to do so. NATS loss is theirs - that of someone who would have done anything to succeed as an ATCO and come in full of enthusiasm and respect. Time to move on, the hand has been forced.
Food for thought.
WF