NATS Airport Re-grading (for pay)
Jerricho...
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TT, I think you missed the point a little.
NATS, in their effort to be a "world ATS leader" has really pissed so many staff off. And I agree some units have a right to be so (what's that term my therapist uses......undervalued?).
So just keep the bitching and moaning going guys. Stuff the NATS forum..........it's going to make a lot of other ATS staff out there think "Jeeze, I thought we were getting shafted!". Let's all feel good in ourselves we can help our fellow controllers in this small way.
(I know I'm repeating myself)
How about emailing [email protected] , get access to the NATS forum (Provide your real name, pprune user name, employee number and unit) and continue it there if you must.
NATS, in their effort to be a "world ATS leader" has really pissed so many staff off. And I agree some units have a right to be so (what's that term my therapist uses......undervalued?).
So just keep the bitching and moaning going guys. Stuff the NATS forum..........it's going to make a lot of other ATS staff out there think "Jeeze, I thought we were getting shafted!". Let's all feel good in ourselves we can help our fellow controllers in this small way.
(I know I'm repeating myself)
How about emailing [email protected] , get access to the NATS forum (Provide your real name, pprune user name, employee number and unit) and continue it there if you must.
Last edited by Jerricho; 17th Jan 2004 at 18:23.
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NoNo Jerricho
I think YOU missed my point - it is a pity that this happening to you guys is what I was trying to get across. It is a pity that to a certain extent you are turning on each other and not banding together to fight as a team. I dont blame you for it, on the contrary it is a very natural reaction and has been used by management in other places before.
You can never have a level playing field and everybody will always have some special claim as to why my job is the busiest, why I work the hardest, why I deserve more money.......etc.......
As much I enjoy winding you guys up - most* of the time I do it for fun - this doesnt seem like fun to me
I agree leave the threads here - maybe somebody can help - but dont show too much of your hand....if you get what I mean.
*Still dont understand why you guys cant figure out parallel headings....
You can never have a level playing field and everybody will always have some special claim as to why my job is the busiest, why I work the hardest, why I deserve more money.......etc.......
As much I enjoy winding you guys up - most* of the time I do it for fun - this doesnt seem like fun to me
I agree leave the threads here - maybe somebody can help - but dont show too much of your hand....if you get what I mean.
*Still dont understand why you guys cant figure out parallel headings....
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You are all getting a bloody good pay rise.
ALL units thinks they are busy. ALL units think they are short staffed. ALL units think they work hard. So we are all in the same boat on that one. So move to the units that are being rewarded more than others, that way you can't possibly complain as you will remain busy, short staffed and working your bits off.
Yes, this new system has a few discrepancies but on the whole it is fair. Speak to your rep and learn how to table a motion to conference to move your band, or re-count the scores, whatever makes YOU happy , but please don't just sit and complain. Some people have spent years (literally) of their own private time on this and months of meetings with management to get what overall is an inflation busting pay rise for all.
If you don't like it - vote no. If you do - vote yes. Stop bickering and making us all look like spoilt children.
ALL units thinks they are busy. ALL units think they are short staffed. ALL units think they work hard. So we are all in the same boat on that one. So move to the units that are being rewarded more than others, that way you can't possibly complain as you will remain busy, short staffed and working your bits off.
Yes, this new system has a few discrepancies but on the whole it is fair. Speak to your rep and learn how to table a motion to conference to move your band, or re-count the scores, whatever makes YOU happy , but please don't just sit and complain. Some people have spent years (literally) of their own private time on this and months of meetings with management to get what overall is an inflation busting pay rise for all.
If you don't like it - vote no. If you do - vote yes. Stop bickering and making us all look like spoilt children.
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Earth Calling BobbleHat,
Have you actually read anything that has been posted here??
There are a whole load of us that have tried to get out of the regional airports to move to the centres/LL, KK, but because we are so short staffed and working our @rses off, we can't get out, there are people at my unit who have had their names down to get out for over 5 years. We WANT to go to these places, but we CANNOT.
We have tabled motions to conference for God knows how many years now insisting that the union REFUSE to enter into a 2 year pay deal.
Looks like as usual Prospect doesn't take any notice of it's memership wishes.
I for one will be looking for another union when this is all over, no matter what the result of the ballot (although I suspect it will be an overwhelming YES)
Have you actually read anything that has been posted here??
There are a whole load of us that have tried to get out of the regional airports to move to the centres/LL, KK, but because we are so short staffed and working our @rses off, we can't get out, there are people at my unit who have had their names down to get out for over 5 years. We WANT to go to these places, but we CANNOT.
We have tabled motions to conference for God knows how many years now insisting that the union REFUSE to enter into a 2 year pay deal.
Looks like as usual Prospect doesn't take any notice of it's memership wishes.
I for one will be looking for another union when this is all over, no matter what the result of the ballot (although I suspect it will be an overwhelming YES)
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Bobblehat said:
"So move to the units that are being rewarded more than others, that way you can't possibly complain as you will remain busy, short staffed and working your bits off."
What planet are you living on? As has already been said on this thread and the WPP thread, people have been trying to move out of units for ages, and are finding that they are not being allowed out of their unit, or can't get to where they want to go.
Now what do you think will happen if all the other controllers in the bottom 2 bands ask to move. It's not going to happen is it?
The issue isn't just the pay - it's the regrading. Changes in the WPP have been happening at airports for ages, and no-one at the centers has battered an eyelid. Now they've started to complain that they may have to start at 5.30 - at least they work a WHOLE MONTH less than us 3 watch units, before leave is taken into consideration.
I'd be happy to start at 5.30 - nice quiet trip into work, and an extra month off a year!
Sonic
"So move to the units that are being rewarded more than others, that way you can't possibly complain as you will remain busy, short staffed and working your bits off."
What planet are you living on? As has already been said on this thread and the WPP thread, people have been trying to move out of units for ages, and are finding that they are not being allowed out of their unit, or can't get to where they want to go.
Now what do you think will happen if all the other controllers in the bottom 2 bands ask to move. It's not going to happen is it?
The issue isn't just the pay - it's the regrading. Changes in the WPP have been happening at airports for ages, and no-one at the centers has battered an eyelid. Now they've started to complain that they may have to start at 5.30 - at least they work a WHOLE MONTH less than us 3 watch units, before leave is taken into consideration.
I'd be happy to start at 5.30 - nice quiet trip into work, and an extra month off a year!
Sonic
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Bobblehat said:
"Yes, this new system has a few discrepancies but on the whole it is fair. Speak to your rep and learn how to table a motion to conference to move your band, or re-count the scores, whatever makes YOU happy , but please don't just sit and complain. Some people have spent years (literally) of their own private time on this and months of meetings with management to get what overall is an inflation busting pay rise for all"
A few discrepancies is the bulk of the Airports being down-graded, many of these with traffic that is not included so as to keep the scores down Cardiff, Aberdeen and Farnborough to name a few. Is that fair
Okay so we table a motion to Conference which as it happens is next November and it goes to a card vote; well we all know the result of that one don't we
Re-count the scores: So lets ignore that traffic again back to square one
Please don't sit and complain; okay then lets just sit here and wait to see how they can stitch us up next time. We have to let Prospect know how we feel.
Oh yes and the time spent, well most of it is on the company, logged in the green card!
PA7
"Yes, this new system has a few discrepancies but on the whole it is fair. Speak to your rep and learn how to table a motion to conference to move your band, or re-count the scores, whatever makes YOU happy , but please don't just sit and complain. Some people have spent years (literally) of their own private time on this and months of meetings with management to get what overall is an inflation busting pay rise for all"
A few discrepancies is the bulk of the Airports being down-graded, many of these with traffic that is not included so as to keep the scores down Cardiff, Aberdeen and Farnborough to name a few. Is that fair
Okay so we table a motion to Conference which as it happens is next November and it goes to a card vote; well we all know the result of that one don't we
Re-count the scores: So lets ignore that traffic again back to square one
Please don't sit and complain; okay then lets just sit here and wait to see how they can stitch us up next time. We have to let Prospect know how we feel.
Oh yes and the time spent, well most of it is on the company, logged in the green card!
PA7
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I just hope all you band 5 ATCOs like your new slimmed down union when this is over. I think you'll find the forgotten units that (hopefully) leave on mass will actually weaken your cards for the future.
The Greebs
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I hope you're not right Greeby-Baby But it seems that the Airports have just been stitched over and over again, with the en masse big unit votes outnumbering you every time. Now get back to your studying or I'll not drop off the DVDs.
But it seems that the Airports have just been stitched over and over again, with the en masse big unit votes outnumbering you every time. Now get back to your studying or I'll not drop off the DVDs.
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TT - Sorry, I did misunderstand where you were coming from. Humble apology. Speaking to a few controller buddies of mine back home and the whole thing was mentioned with a big smirk. And they found it highly amusing, as you rightly point out, the in house bickering and turning on each other.
Just think, if a prosepctive applicant saw all this, what the hell would they think?
Just think, if a prosepctive applicant saw all this, what the hell would they think?
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What would prospective candidates think ?
Well if they have any sense they would avoid doing approach control and aim straight for LTCC and LACC.
No candidate in their right mind would now opt for Approach as a career not when there is such a marked differential in pay.
So those of you bemoaning your staff shortages at EGLL better watch out, in the short term you may get a substantial pay rise , but sorting out your long term staff shortages ........
We haven't got a a hope in hells chance now of getting the right calibre into Airports have we, we will end up getting the also rans out of the college who couldn't make it on the area side not the high standard of trainees we actually require.
Talk about a long term shot in the foot guys
Well if they have any sense they would avoid doing approach control and aim straight for LTCC and LACC.
No candidate in their right mind would now opt for Approach as a career not when there is such a marked differential in pay.
So those of you bemoaning your staff shortages at EGLL better watch out, in the short term you may get a substantial pay rise , but sorting out your long term staff shortages ........
We haven't got a a hope in hells chance now of getting the right calibre into Airports have we, we will end up getting the also rans out of the college who couldn't make it on the area side not the high standard of trainees we actually require.
Talk about a long term shot in the foot guys
Ohcirrej
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Flower, my thoughts exactly. Deep down, it is human nature.......where will I get more money?
Perhaps just a little harsh with the "also rans" bit. If I remember correctly, isn't the college streaming now straight into Area or Approach from day 1?
Perhaps just a little harsh with the "also rans" bit. If I remember correctly, isn't the college streaming now straight into Area or Approach from day 1?
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Not sure how valid that is to be honest. I remember being told five years ago that area was the way forward if you wanted money, and that seems to have been the case ever since. AFAIK Approach courses are always over-subscribed.
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Money money money
I'm sorry flower, but I have to disagree. On nearly all counts. I doubt very much that college candidates are remotely as mercenarily money-driven as you seem to be suggesting.
It is made clear at the college that a "marked differential in pay" already exists between Approach/Airports and Area. However, many ab-initio trainees WANT to do Approach but are unable because courses are so small. I would have done Approach myself had the opportunity arisen, but it did not and I was packed off to LACC as an Area student. Sure, the money is nice now I'm there, but I'm not money-motivated to such a degree.
Do you remember the term "mobile grade"? The contract that you sign before they even let you set foot in the college. It means, "You will go where NATS tells you to go". Most students don't get a chance to "aim" for anywhere. They get what they are given. If that means a future earning a "pittance" at a Band 1 unit, then so be it. They can always hand in their notice.
I say "pittance" because that's just what it ISN'T. We are ALL paid well for what we do. We have ALL been offered an above-inflation pay rise. It seems that some of the more experienced ATCOs need to remove their heads from dark orifices and look around. Because they're becoming far too greedy.
Oh, and one other thing:
Where have you been? This has been happening for years already. If the trainees weren't of a high enough standard, they wouldn't make it out of the college full stop. The fact that some area failures are given the opportunity to do Approach is merely NATS trying to reduce the attrition rate and give promising trainees another shot.
LTP
It is made clear at the college that a "marked differential in pay" already exists between Approach/Airports and Area. However, many ab-initio trainees WANT to do Approach but are unable because courses are so small. I would have done Approach myself had the opportunity arisen, but it did not and I was packed off to LACC as an Area student. Sure, the money is nice now I'm there, but I'm not money-motivated to such a degree.
Do you remember the term "mobile grade"? The contract that you sign before they even let you set foot in the college. It means, "You will go where NATS tells you to go". Most students don't get a chance to "aim" for anywhere. They get what they are given. If that means a future earning a "pittance" at a Band 1 unit, then so be it. They can always hand in their notice.
I say "pittance" because that's just what it ISN'T. We are ALL paid well for what we do. We have ALL been offered an above-inflation pay rise. It seems that some of the more experienced ATCOs need to remove their heads from dark orifices and look around. Because they're becoming far too greedy.
Oh, and one other thing:
We haven't got a a hope in hells chance now of getting the right calibre into Airports have we, we will end up getting the also rans out of the college who couldn't make it on the area side not the high standard of trainees we actually require.
LTP
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The differential in pay up till now has not been as extreme as it will be following the introduction of the this new banding.
I do not know how they currently decides who is going area or approach , however If at the college from day one you know you will be earning substantially less than your area trainee colleagues that will cause great resentment.
I am a not a greedy ATCO with my head up some orifice thank you very much, if you read through all my postings you will see i will not be swayed by an additional 20K to move as i happen to enjoy the work i do.
To say that all ATCOs are greedy because those of us in the lower bands feel aggrieved by the whopping great differential in pay this will cause is a farce.
I am not complaining about the annual pay rise I am happy with that , but I will say again this banding is unfair has not been thought out in the long term and will do more damage to this company and the union than those of you getting the whopping great big pay rise can ever contemplate.
I have heard various people getting the large increase saying stop moaning, that is very easy to say from your position. MACC is losing staff hand over foot, i suspect others will soon start walking to.
Long term this is very damaging.
I do not know how they currently decides who is going area or approach , however If at the college from day one you know you will be earning substantially less than your area trainee colleagues that will cause great resentment.
I am a not a greedy ATCO with my head up some orifice thank you very much, if you read through all my postings you will see i will not be swayed by an additional 20K to move as i happen to enjoy the work i do.
To say that all ATCOs are greedy because those of us in the lower bands feel aggrieved by the whopping great differential in pay this will cause is a farce.
I am not complaining about the annual pay rise I am happy with that , but I will say again this banding is unfair has not been thought out in the long term and will do more damage to this company and the union than those of you getting the whopping great big pay rise can ever contemplate.
I have heard various people getting the large increase saying stop moaning, that is very easy to say from your position. MACC is losing staff hand over foot, i suspect others will soon start walking to.
Long term this is very damaging.
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LostThePicture
Quote:
I say "pittance" because that's just what it ISN'T. We are ALL paid well for what we do. We have ALL been offered an above-inflation pay rise. It seems that some of the more experienced ATCOs need to remove their heads from dark orifices and look around. Because they're becoming far too greedy.
I take it you are not being down graded because I believe that if you were then you might have something to complain about...there is more to this than money. The only thing to come out of all this is deep division.
Flower the voice of reason
PA7
Quote:
I say "pittance" because that's just what it ISN'T. We are ALL paid well for what we do. We have ALL been offered an above-inflation pay rise. It seems that some of the more experienced ATCOs need to remove their heads from dark orifices and look around. Because they're becoming far too greedy.
I take it you are not being down graded because I believe that if you were then you might have something to complain about...there is more to this than money. The only thing to come out of all this is deep division.
Flower the voice of reason
PA7
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From an outsider looking in point of view :
Can't believe PF and PH are NOT in the same band as BB and SS, more so PH as there ATM's are not a million miles far from BB and will no doubt overtake them in the next couple of years and when you see what they have to work with at PH, you wouldn't grudge them a bit extra.
Also NATS staff have complained about Prospect for a long time now, just wondering how difficult is it to get rid of them and get another organisation to represent you??
Good Luck to the people who are against it because l think you have a right to feel unhappy so l hope you get the fairness you deserve.
Can't believe PF and PH are NOT in the same band as BB and SS, more so PH as there ATM's are not a million miles far from BB and will no doubt overtake them in the next couple of years and when you see what they have to work with at PH, you wouldn't grudge them a bit extra.
Also NATS staff have complained about Prospect for a long time now, just wondering how difficult is it to get rid of them and get another organisation to represent you??
Good Luck to the people who are against it because l think you have a right to feel unhappy so l hope you get the fairness you deserve.