NATS Airport Re-grading (for pay)
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Divide and rule
Airports shafted again.
Remember the ATCO2 to 3 downgrading ?
Should people be paid for the job they do, or where they stay ?
I would say Glasgow and Edinburgh are as busy/complex as Birmingham and damn sight harder work than a deskilled tower only unit.
If it costs so much to stay 'daan sarf' (keep it lads, nae hills, nae snow, nae sheep
), then wouldn't it make financial sense to transfer more and more sectors to New Scottish Centre (or Glasgow Approach or India) where the jobs are cheaper - and more gratefully received ?
Oh, I forgot they already started doing that with the North Sea.
Surely if it costs so bloody much to live down south, market forces dictate that instead of subsidising it, you should move the jobs to the cheaper areas ? Or do too many NATS management have vested interests in nice little packages for themselves on the South Coast ?
Remember the ATCO2 to 3 downgrading ?
Should people be paid for the job they do, or where they stay ?
I would say Glasgow and Edinburgh are as busy/complex as Birmingham and damn sight harder work than a deskilled tower only unit.
If it costs so much to stay 'daan sarf' (keep it lads, nae hills, nae snow, nae sheep
), then wouldn't it make financial sense to transfer more and more sectors to New Scottish Centre (or Glasgow Approach or India) where the jobs are cheaper - and more gratefully received ?Oh, I forgot they already started doing that with the North Sea.
Surely if it costs so bloody much to live down south, market forces dictate that instead of subsidising it, you should move the jobs to the cheaper areas ? Or do too many NATS management have vested interests in nice little packages for themselves on the South Coast ?
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PA7 needs a reality check.
2002 movements. Glasgow, 105,000. Edinburgh, 118,000. Hmm, bit busier in the east. Capital status? Perth used to have it, Stirling used to have it, Edinburgh still has it, Glasgow never had it though by you'd sometimes think it was the capital of Ireland (North and South!).
Edinburgh's traffic level is much closer to Birmingham than Glasgow, indeed at current growth rates (which leave Glasgow behind somewhat) Edinburgh will probably overtake Birmingham long before the end of the 2 year period for which this pay whitewash will last. Will Edinburgh be regraded to Band 3 when that happens? I wouldn't bet on it.
As for the idea of basing pay on cost of living, Edinburgh ATCOs will be all for it (and that's one area where Glasgow is catching up though from a low base). To buy a property in Edinburgh in a decent area, unless it's new from a developer, involves a deposit of typically 25-40% more than the MORTGAGE VALUATION. So, looking at new-build properties, £180k will get a tiny 1-bed flat, £260k for a 2-bed flat and £300k for a 3-bed flat, all in decent but not stunning areas. A 5-bed house for family ATCOs comes in at £645k.
Oh yes, all you Heathrow/Gatwick/LATCC/Swanwick people, it costs peanuts to live north of Watford....
2002 movements. Glasgow, 105,000. Edinburgh, 118,000. Hmm, bit busier in the east. Capital status? Perth used to have it, Stirling used to have it, Edinburgh still has it, Glasgow never had it though by you'd sometimes think it was the capital of Ireland (North and South!).
Edinburgh's traffic level is much closer to Birmingham than Glasgow, indeed at current growth rates (which leave Glasgow behind somewhat) Edinburgh will probably overtake Birmingham long before the end of the 2 year period for which this pay whitewash will last. Will Edinburgh be regraded to Band 3 when that happens? I wouldn't bet on it.
As for the idea of basing pay on cost of living, Edinburgh ATCOs will be all for it (and that's one area where Glasgow is catching up though from a low base). To buy a property in Edinburgh in a decent area, unless it's new from a developer, involves a deposit of typically 25-40% more than the MORTGAGE VALUATION. So, looking at new-build properties, £180k will get a tiny 1-bed flat, £260k for a 2-bed flat and £300k for a 3-bed flat, all in decent but not stunning areas. A 5-bed house for family ATCOs comes in at £645k.
Oh yes, all you Heathrow/Gatwick/LATCC/Swanwick people, it costs peanuts to live north of Watford....
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Glasgow never had it though by you'd sometimes think it was the capital of Ireland (North and South
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Deep Throat?
As the guy in the film said..."Follow the Money". Lots of vacancies down here so get on your bikes and get off your soapboxes! I'm sure we'd all like to be Mr/Mrs/Ms Easylife but life ain't like that.
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I would like to know how the restructuring pay points were compiled.
The results of the investigation at the airfields, which I am told included all aspects of our tasks, gave the following points:-
Heathrow 497, Gatwick 431, Manchester 426, Stansted 297, Birmingham 290.
With a point difference of about 60 to 70 points between EGLL and the next two airfields, EGKK & EGCC, Heathrow get an extra pay point increment.
With a difference of aprox 130 points between Gatwick, Manchester and the two airfields in the group below, Stansted & Birmingham, EGBB & EGSS gain half a pay point on EGKK & EGCC.
How come?
The results of the investigation at the airfields, which I am told included all aspects of our tasks, gave the following points:-
Heathrow 497, Gatwick 431, Manchester 426, Stansted 297, Birmingham 290.
With a point difference of about 60 to 70 points between EGLL and the next two airfields, EGKK & EGCC, Heathrow get an extra pay point increment.
With a difference of aprox 130 points between Gatwick, Manchester and the two airfields in the group below, Stansted & Birmingham, EGBB & EGSS gain half a pay point on EGKK & EGCC.
How come?
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Lock n Load
I take it then you are happy to take the down grading at your unit then and vote for the pay rise, thats' the reality mate. Still you could always move down south to the South East I hear the housing is cheaper down there
The points system is like Gov't statistics they can be manipulated to make some units look great, others look average and the rest
I believe that the movements were wieghted in some cases in order to favour certain units and screw others. I am still voting NO.
I take it then you are happy to take the down grading at your unit then and vote for the pay rise, thats' the reality mate. Still you could always move down south to the South East I hear the housing is cheaper down there
The points system is like Gov't statistics they can be manipulated to make some units look great, others look average and the rest
I believe that the movements were wieghted in some cases in order to favour certain units and screw others. I am still voting NO.
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The more i think about the airport grading the more i see a total injustice being done.
Heathrow two runways, yes we know you are busy but you are top of the groupings. Gatwick , single runway ops, very busy ground movement also in the expensive south east is in a lower group than you , why ?
If we want to talk about individual units and what they do, my unit took a large chunk of airspace off LACC in July of last year. We have approximately 120 miles of airways up to FL165. We are the Approach unit to Cardiff and RAF St Athan, we also provide intermediate approach services to Bristol Lulsgate and Filton, Exeter and Swansea. We operate a busy LARS service and because of us having a UHF frequency we work a large number of Military aircraft ( anyone used to working military traffic are aware that they take up a considerable amount of time in relation to civilian aircraft)
We do not have by any means the density of traffic of units such as Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, we though last year were many weeks just a few aircraft behind Birmingham in weekly movements during the summer months.
We lose out because we are seasonal, and our own runway movements are lower, the very nature of my unit is a radar unit with a Small amount of tower.
We, like other units have taken airspace off LACC to help them sort out their problems, they get a grading up the top of the scale we, who have reduced delays in the West End significantly through the delegated function are now ATCO4s effectively.
Staff shortages do not exist purely at the units in Group 5 , we all have them , unless a miracle happens before the summer, when increased movements at both Bristol and Exeter will increase our workload further, we will be unable to bring in our new WP which ensures we do not have single manning in the approach room after 1830 at night. Our busiest period is after then and we as radar controllers are alone even without ATSA support.
High house prices are not just the domain of the South East either we are all catching up rapidly with you whilst prices fall in the South East.
I pay exactly the same union dues as my colleagues elsewhere, I however am not being properly represented and my company has made it clear that those of us who work at the regional airports , because we do not have the same numbers to vote against such proposals, are of an insignificance to them.
Thank you NATS and PROSPECT for making me feel a valued member of both the company and MY union.
Heathrow two runways, yes we know you are busy but you are top of the groupings. Gatwick , single runway ops, very busy ground movement also in the expensive south east is in a lower group than you , why ?
If we want to talk about individual units and what they do, my unit took a large chunk of airspace off LACC in July of last year. We have approximately 120 miles of airways up to FL165. We are the Approach unit to Cardiff and RAF St Athan, we also provide intermediate approach services to Bristol Lulsgate and Filton, Exeter and Swansea. We operate a busy LARS service and because of us having a UHF frequency we work a large number of Military aircraft ( anyone used to working military traffic are aware that they take up a considerable amount of time in relation to civilian aircraft)
We do not have by any means the density of traffic of units such as Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, we though last year were many weeks just a few aircraft behind Birmingham in weekly movements during the summer months.
We lose out because we are seasonal, and our own runway movements are lower, the very nature of my unit is a radar unit with a Small amount of tower.
We, like other units have taken airspace off LACC to help them sort out their problems, they get a grading up the top of the scale we, who have reduced delays in the West End significantly through the delegated function are now ATCO4s effectively.
Staff shortages do not exist purely at the units in Group 5 , we all have them , unless a miracle happens before the summer, when increased movements at both Bristol and Exeter will increase our workload further, we will be unable to bring in our new WP which ensures we do not have single manning in the approach room after 1830 at night. Our busiest period is after then and we as radar controllers are alone even without ATSA support.
High house prices are not just the domain of the South East either we are all catching up rapidly with you whilst prices fall in the South East.
I pay exactly the same union dues as my colleagues elsewhere, I however am not being properly represented and my company has made it clear that those of us who work at the regional airports , because we do not have the same numbers to vote against such proposals, are of an insignificance to them.
Thank you NATS and PROSPECT for making me feel a valued member of both the company and MY union.
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This Foundation Payment of 1/2 spine point over 1 year or cica 2% for Band 1 & 2 units. I take it that this payment is for 1 year only then which means that our pay rise for 2005 will equate to 1.2%.
I hope I am wrong on this one but I doubt it
Thanks again Prospect
I hope I am wrong on this one but I doubt it
Thanks again Prospect
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Your management must be laughing
They just log onto PPRUNE and see all the fighting and bickering and whinging and complaining - they just let you fight each other and divide and conquer.
It really is a pity.
Oh yeah somebody explain to me why this isnt in the NATS forum?
couldnt let you down 5milesbaby....
It really is a pity.
Oh yeah somebody explain to me why this isnt in the NATS forum?
couldnt let you down 5milesbaby....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
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As I am now a bottom of the band atco, I obviously don't do much work, and so have had time to work out some of the pay rises for all the bands, increments etc over the next 2 years.
I thought I'd post some spot figures:
.................................Dec 03.......Jan 04.........Jan 05....... Apr 05
Band 1 + 2 top..........46281.........48780.........50341.......50341
Band 3 top................46281.........48780..........51348....... 52375
Band 4 top................56418.........59465..........62557....... 62557
Band 5 Top...............61733.........65067..........71146........ 71146
Now that's a serious 10,000 pounds pay rise over a 12 month period in Band 5
How many people who work in those bands would vote no to that payrise, so supporting the Band 1 and 2 units that are being penalised? Prob not many...so if even all the band 1 and 2 units vote no, it would prob be still accepted because of all the greedy atcos higher up the nats chain.
It now means that a luton tower controller earns 22,000 pounds less than his colleague doing radar, who worked with him at Luton not so long ago.
No doubt a lot of you will be saying you're worth it. Well, do you really honestly think you're that much better than us? If you do, then maybe that's why a lot of us don't want to transfer to your unit.
Farny
I thought I'd post some spot figures:
.................................Dec 03.......Jan 04.........Jan 05....... Apr 05
Band 1 + 2 top..........46281.........48780.........50341.......50341
Band 3 top................46281.........48780..........51348....... 52375
Band 4 top................56418.........59465..........62557....... 62557
Band 5 Top...............61733.........65067..........71146........ 71146
Now that's a serious 10,000 pounds pay rise over a 12 month period in Band 5
How many people who work in those bands would vote no to that payrise, so supporting the Band 1 and 2 units that are being penalised? Prob not many...so if even all the band 1 and 2 units vote no, it would prob be still accepted because of all the greedy atcos higher up the nats chain.
It now means that a luton tower controller earns 22,000 pounds less than his colleague doing radar, who worked with him at Luton not so long ago.
No doubt a lot of you will be saying you're worth it. Well, do you really honestly think you're that much better than us? If you do, then maybe that's why a lot of us don't want to transfer to your unit.
Farny
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Banding?
Although I'm not a fan of inter-unit bickering or even the current deal-Could someone please correct me if I'm reading the NATS figures wrong when it comes to movements per controller/year.
NERC En-route 4800 give or take a few.
MACC 4900+
Those aren't my figures, they came from NATS summary of movements per units/annum. I don't for one minute deny that TC are busier than MACC but when it's considered that MACC is essentially also a Terminal Control unit surely the figures/controller give an indication as to how busy it can be here. And although we all deserve better than what they are going to give us, it seems to me that a unit with the 3rd busiest sector in Europe (Stafa/Trent) at peak times should not be banded below the likes of Hurn whose artificially high banding just to attract staff makes a mockery of those ATCO's who actually talk to real aeroplanes everyday.
Pardon me my rant and I wish you all just what you deserve-which I'm afraid is far more than you're likely to get.
NERC En-route 4800 give or take a few.
MACC 4900+
Those aren't my figures, they came from NATS summary of movements per units/annum. I don't for one minute deny that TC are busier than MACC but when it's considered that MACC is essentially also a Terminal Control unit surely the figures/controller give an indication as to how busy it can be here. And although we all deserve better than what they are going to give us, it seems to me that a unit with the 3rd busiest sector in Europe (Stafa/Trent) at peak times should not be banded below the likes of Hurn whose artificially high banding just to attract staff makes a mockery of those ATCO's who actually talk to real aeroplanes everyday.
Pardon me my rant and I wish you all just what you deserve-which I'm afraid is far more than you're likely to get.
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Mahaba, you are preaching to the converted.
A mere two years ago we were shifting more traffic in more airspace with less controllers. Then we were all moved to the sunny south coast.
Isn't progress great!!
A mere two years ago we were shifting more traffic in more airspace with less controllers. Then we were all moved to the sunny south coast.
Isn't progress great!!
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Allegedly?
I do hope your right 01 but if they don't let us in on any little secrets they may have, they may find it's too late to rescue our beloved unit. Toronto already has more of us committed to it than they ever thought they would lose and some of us already have our Winnipeg invitations in our hands-that's just for starters. If they are playing a game...it's a dangerous one. Hope they realise that. 
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Mahaba
If the current rest-room rumour factory is to be believed they do indeed realise that. They simply don't care - apparently.
I hear the next major "wave" of Canadian migrants is leaving over the next few months - some really good, experienced colleagues leaving and more to follow surely.
Worrying times indeed.
I hear the next major "wave" of Canadian migrants is leaving over the next few months - some really good, experienced colleagues leaving and more to follow surely.
Worrying times indeed.
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''No doubt a lot of you will be saying you're worth it. Well, do you really honestly think you're that much better than us? If you do, then maybe that's why a lot of us don't want to transfer to your unit''.
No Farny, the reason you don't want to transfer is that an extra £22k is not enough for you to lose your health over..........
No Farny, the reason you don't want to transfer is that an extra £22k is not enough for you to lose your health over..........
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niteflight
We are filling their positions so quickly that they (NAVCANADA) are having to offer us other ACC's because they can't cope with our numbers. Other assessments are promised. They will take as many as they can. It is only their training and positions that are limiting our numbers. If they will take us in numbers-we will leave in our masses. If not Canada, Dubai or elsewhere. The sadness of the whole thing is that a very good unit with some of the best people I have ever had the privilege to work with is being torn apart...for a business plan.